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DarkGricer's cards
Topic Started: May 19 2016, 01:43 PM (2,543 Views)
Altaria
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I wonder if the mods would let us do a hypothetical battle using only DG cards because if we can then I'm 120% down for that. Naturally we wouldn't win cards or ST, but it might be fun to take some of these out for a spin.
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DarkGricer
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
I don't think it will surprise anyone that I'd love that. Though I'm not 100% sure whether I have enough cards to really make that interesting.


Not that that prevented me from thinking of one of the most ludicrous, yet crazy powerful strategies ever, but, you know...
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Altaria
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Hmm, if nothing else we could probably do a short 8 to 10 card 2 move card battle. Alternatively we could also try to do a real battle but in the end you'll wreck me either way :P
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DarkGricer
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So, thanks to Clocky's scepticism on whether the Metal attribute would fit in into the TCG, I have decided that next batch will introduce my suggestions for new attributes for the TCG. So stay tuned for the introduction of...

Posted Image
...Crystal...

Posted Image
...Ice...

Posted Image
... and of course Metal!
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Clockwork
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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Crystal and Metal are just types of Earth, and Ice is just a type of Water. I guarantee you, without any doubt at all, that none of those three will ever happen.
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DarkGricer
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Clockwork,Jun 6 2016
01:49 PM
Crystal and Metal are just types of Earth, and Ice is just a type of Water. I guarantee you, without any doubt at all, that none of those three will ever happen.

Sort of, sort of not, given their different functions.

Also, that's not how Sigma was talking when I mentioned my takes on the attributes to him. :P

That said, I have already made the decision. If people do not like the attributes I propose or find them redundant, I will not continue posting them. But if they receive positive reactions, I will continue to post them.

And think on the bring side. Those new attributes could help cut back on the severe overflow of Earth and Water attributes. :P
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Clockwork
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Elements should not be based on "functions" unless that is the only thing they are based on like in Magic. They would just be Earth cards that did different things than most Earth cards.
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DarkGricer
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Well maybe that was a bad way of phrasing things. What I meant is that different elements tend to do different things, due to their inherent characteristics. For example, when's the last time you saw a pure-Fire attributed prehistoric card that was also a supertank? I'm not saying I decide what attribute to make a card because I made it do a certain thing that I feel fits with the attribute.

The thing is, Earth always strikes me as an element of size and power. When I think of Earth, I don't think of a glass cannon or a living bunker. I think of something grand, something whose defense comes from how gosh dang big it is. I guess I can see it apply to something like an ankylosaur, but to something like a pachycephalosaur? That just seems flat out weird to me.

Speaking of weirdness, that's also part of the reason why I think Ice being its own attribute is justified. Despite being a different state of water, ice doesn't really act the same. I mean, think of molten rock. Yeah, it's rock, but it doesn't act anything like what we traditionally think of as a rock. The difference between it and ice is that we already have an attribute that covers molten rock pretty well, being Fire, given that fire and molten rock tend to have a similar interaction with objects. (Being "BURNT HE CRUD OUT OF IT!") Ice is also an "element" that a noticeable amount of cards use. And yet it is shoved into the Water attribute, thus leading to logic-defying scenarios, such as massive fire monsters being slaughtered by ice creatures.

In short, I feel like Crystal and Ice at the very least are different enough to warrant being their own thing. And as for Metal, you said it yourself. A card's element should not be defined by how it functions. Technosaurus is a nice example of a would-be-Metal attribute. Why is it Earth? Because it functions like an Earth attribute, and there's nothing better for it to really be. And I think we can all agree that's not a satisfactory reason. Same thing would go for the likes of Megacastrum and Atsalisaurus being Earth instead of Metal. They don't really give the Earth vibe.

Also, like I said before. The criteria of Earth and Water are so broad, it causes quite the overflow. For example, let's take the dinosaur group as an example, given that most terrestrial cards are dinosaurs.

Now, let's take a look at each of the main groups and what attributes are generally associated with them

Theropods: Fire/Lightning
Sauropods: Earth
Ornithopods: Nature/Lightning
Stegosaurs: Earth
Ankylosaurs: Earth
Ceratopsians: Earth
Pachycephalosaurs: Earth

Heck, technically, about half the ornithopods could count as Earth attributes too. So yeah, there's a bit of a theme here. Luckily for the theropods, they are diverse enough that there's no shortage of Fire attributes on the site. But the amount of Lightning, Nature, Poison and even Wind (To some degree at least) cards is rather puny compared to the big 2. Of course, adding attributes isn't gonna increase the amount of Lightning, Nature and Poison attributes, but it will cut down a bit not he amount of Earth and Water attributes, thus making it a little more even. Not exactly the perfect solution, but it's something.

And lastly, adding Metal and Ice will silence all the people who have ever suggested you add those attributes, which is pretty much everyone who is not a staff member (As far as I know). :P
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Clockwork
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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The reason so many things are Earth is because so many dinosaurs are armored. Big creatures seem most Earthy because they are basically living mountains, but Earth's primary attribute is being armored.

Ice is super unlikely. I can see the justification for it, but I just don't see it ever happening. Crystal is... literally just pretty rocks. By far the least justified of the three.

All of those cards would be Earth because Metal is Earth. Did you never watch Avatar? That is kind of a major plot point. Metal is refined Earth, and that is a more valid reason to put things into the Earth attribute than most.
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DarkGricer
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Unless there's something I'm missing, Earth's primary attribute has always been "good defense" not just "armor". And that seems like a bit of a problem to me, given how that covers pretty much every herbivore that doesn't rely upon running away.

Your point about Crystal isn't technically valid, given that ice crystals exist... huh... Somehow I never even thought about fusing the Ice and Crystal attributes into one. I might just have to go do that. Certainly would help add to the numbers of the Ice attribute.

Earth isn't the most properly defined term. But generally it refers to soil, and perhaps rock. (And also the planet, but that's not exactly what we're talking about here.) Even if we count metal as earth, it is earth in the same way that magma is, or how ice is water. It's state is so different that the way it interacts with objects is nothing like what we traditionally think of as earth. If Earth is supposed to include metal, calling it the mineral attribute would make it a lot less confusing.
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Clockwork
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Well yes you have missed something then, because it's armor.

No one who ever says just crystals means ice crystals.

Metal interacts exactly the same way with things as Earth. It gets hit by things, it shrugs off those hits. Calling it Mineral isn’t less confusing because Earth isn’t confusing. If it was called Mineral the conversation would be about changing the name to something that actually sounds like an element.
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DarkGricer
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Then I'm guessing that has been long lost, given how things like Segnosaurus and Pachycephalosaurus are Earth. Also there's the fact that Sigma literally defined Earth as "creatures that rely on defense" to me.

Well, as I implied, the crystal problems may already be solved once I figure out how/if I would make Crystal and Ice one and the same. :P

That's not what I mean. Throw a bucket of water onto a fire, and you'll probably extinguish it. Throw a bucket of ice onto a fire, and good job, you just melted the ice. Similarly, Metal and Earth have completely different reactions to the other elements. Most fires can melt most metals. And yet putting a rock into a fire doesn't really do anything to it. Metal is excellent at conducting heat and electricity. The ground is not. Also, metal is harder than rock or anything else traditionally considered earth.

And I think the fact that I didn't have a clue that Earth is supposed to include metal proves that it's at least somewhat confusing.
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Clockwork
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Defense = Armor. Pachycephalosaurus is armored. It's not exactly defensive armor, but it is armor.

It isn't that Metal is supposed to be Earth so much as there are too few things to justify having Metal at all. Metal has different defensive properties, maybe, but offensively they are identical. Defensively, there is no reason to make them different because weaknesses and resistances can vary for individual creatures. Metal isn’t in any way elemental like Earth, so it doesn't have the variety of different things you can do with it. And with armor being Earth, there are very few cards that would be Metal anyways. All signs point to no reason for hypothetical Metal cards to not just be Earth instead.
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Altaria
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Clockwork,Jun 6 2016
03:38 PM
Ice is super unlikely. I can see the justification for it, but I just don't see it ever happening.

I see this as backwards, I can totally see it happening and as DG said basically everyone has suggested it at one point, but I personally don't see any justification for it. Idk I guess one of the things I like about CB is that the cards aren't completely flanderized by their attributes. While most attributes do seem to have their own specific niche, it's also cool to see other creatures have that element. Diversity is pretty nice. In this case though, I don't see Ice as necessary yet simply because it would literally just become "ice age creatures and also Cryolophosaurus". There's so few of them that there's not really much of a need for them to be included yet, and would probably just become like the Poison attribute who only has about 20 cards at most, all of whom could theoretically be re-distributed into other groups if needed.

I think at one point I also suggested Ice creatures, but I don't see the need for it anymore unless we get a steady increase in polar/arctic/ice-age creatures both here and on GI. coughcoughmakemoremammalscoughcough. As for the feel of an "icy" creature defeating a "fiery" creature, I can sort of relate? Personally it never bothered me because I figured "If Antarctosaurus uses Ice Beam, the fire would melt it and melted ice is literally just water so then it would be Water Cannon". That and also the fact that most of the fire creatures probably aren't literally hot or use attacks that are literally fire, most of them tend to be "(First Half of Name)+(Action involving teeth or claws)". While I'm not necessarily against the ice type, I don't see a need for it nor am I particularly convinced it would be that great. Plus if there is an ice type what color would it be? We already have Wind and Water in the blue section :P

I do admit that there are a LOT of Earth types, SOOOO many Earth types. When it's massive things like... Amphicoelias F. or Bruhathyasomethingsaurus then it's totally justified I'd say, but some things could do with being shifted around. Ankylosaurs I guess would also go well in Earth... but Ceratopsians, Stegosaurs, things like Pachycephalosaurs, all of them could probably be moved to other sections. That's not to say that some of them don't belong in Earth, or couldn't justifiably be Earth, but some of them could be moved to other sections. A Fire-Nature Stegosaur, anyone? A Wind attribute Pachy? Is it just my imagination or was there at one point a Fire or Lightning attribute Styracosaurus? I feel like too many times the whole elements system just literally becomes a body-shape system and I'm not too big of a fan of that because I feel like it really destroys balance. Earth's weakness is Wind, but almost all Earth cards are 100+ HP giants with abilities who give them a defensive boost and almost all Wind cards are ~30 HP kites who don't deal more than ~70 damage with the exception of the Aerial trio. Simply put, they just can't compete. I feel like at this point it's just...

Earth - Big Herbivores, Armored Herbivores
Nature - Small Herbivores, Armorless Herbivores
Wind - Wings
Fire - Big Predators
Lightning - Small Predators
Water - Flippers

It's not bad, necessarily, but I feel like pigeon-holing an entire branch of animals into any one element really unbalances the system and turns this more into Fish<Carnivore<Herbivore rock paper scissors where the only way to win is by having really big sauropods (Earth) backed by intimidating theropods (Fire) and that there's no way to win if your deck is mostly things like Lightning or Wind who just can't keep up on the competitive scene. That's also why I got really excited when I saw your Eurypterids being part wind instead of being water (praise Sigma for the Fire Jaeyk) and why I really like the fact that no one type is specifically weak to another. Sorry sorry sorry if I'm rambling on and on and also late to the discussion, it's been a very long day jaja.

Also I think you may have answered this by the time I get to post, but what exactly is Crystal supposed to be?
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DarkGricer
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Clockwork,Jun 6 2016
06:32 PM
Defense = Armor. Pachycephalosaurus is armored. It's not exactly defensive armor, but it is armor.

Are you saying a hammer is an offensive shield just because it can technically speaking be used to block attacks? Even if that logic is valid, sauropods, therizinosaurs, pelycosaurs, ect, usually don't have any armor. Well, unless you want to qualify teeth and claws as armor. If you do, let's just make literally every card on the site that has any hard parts whatsoever an Earth attribute. See the point I'm getting at?

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It isn't that Metal is supposed to be Earth so much as there are too few things to justify having Metal at all. Metal has different defensive properties, maybe, but offensively they are identical. Defensively, there is no reason to make them different because weaknesses and resistances can vary for individual creatures. Metal isn’t in any way elemental like Earth, so it doesn't have the variety of different things you can do with it. And with armor being Earth, there are very few cards that would be Metal anyways. All signs point to no reason for hypothetical Metal cards to not just be Earth instead.

I suppose, using the traditional rock/paper/scissors w/r system, you are right, there probably wouldn't be a solid way to differentiate Metal from Earth enough. However, that's about 75% of the reason why I introduced the icon system, so that it no longer has to be rock/paper/scissors for the most part at least. Whether a type is generally strong or weak defensively or offensively would no longer depend entirely upon the inherent attributes that most creatures of each attribute have. Some attributes might share weaknesses, but others don't. I've devised a type chart that makes Metal and Earth perfectly distinguished from each other. If you want to see it, just tell me. (I mean, Sigma already has it, but apparently he hasn't decided to throw me to the wolves yet! :fistshake: I just want to pet the fluffy puppies...)

As for the whole element thing. Nature doesn't really seem like an element in the same way that the others are either. Poison also seems a little iffy in this category. And I understand that it's not really a main element, but I don't think anyone ever brings up the "apocalypse" element when talking about what element they want their wizard character to master. Also there's the fact that it's an element in the MMORPG alongside Magic and Gravity. I don't even know how the hell those two are supposed to interact with other attributes.

As for the armor thing, like I said, if that was indeed the original intention, it seems to have been lost. I don't know about you, but when I think of the Earth attribute, Ankylosaurus doesn't come to mind until long after the giant sauropod and other relatively armor lacking creatures have passed by. Big things is what the Earth attribute has become known for. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to pass on what it originally meant to an attribute that has long been requested. And like I've said, it would help make the number of Earth attributes compared to everything else a lot more reasonable.

Altaria
 
"If Antarctosaurus uses Ice Beam, the fire would melt it and melted ice is literally just water so then it would be Water Cannon".

I thought about that too, but real life has shown me plenty of times that's not how it works, unless maybe you put a massive block of ice on top of a tiny fire. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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Also I think you may have answered this by the time I get to post, but what exactly is Crystal supposed to be?

Crystal (Which I'll probably end up making a part of the Ice attribute) is meant for herbivores who thinks he best defense is a good offense. I've also been applying it to carnivores with unusual pointy bits, like Carnotaurus and Inostrancevia.
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