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The HP topic
Topic Started: Aug 1 2013, 08:46 AM (296 Views)
DarkGricer
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
One thing that bothers me is when I see a card who's HP is more than it should be according to the calculator, or which use outdated size estimates. So, I decided to make this topic to point out any of those cases, so that they can be updated to fit with modern times. Let's start.

First cases I've noticed are Arthropleura and Jaekelopterus. Both have 100 HP. Now, lets calculate how much they actually should have.
Both where around 2.5 meters in length. (Now, I realize that the HP calculator is based around feet, rather than meters, but I've realized that calculating using meters is easier, as all you have to do is add a 0 to the end of the length and you get the same amount of HP as you'd get when calculating with feet.), so we can round that to either 2 or 3 meters, which would give them 20-30 HP, now, add the exoskeleton bonus, which adds 40 HP, which would give them only 60-70 HP.

Then there's a different case: Ekrixinatosaurus. Now I realize that there are 11 meter estimates for it, which would mean it's HP would be completely fine, but these estimates are very, very liberal. To reach such sizes, it would've need to have the different proportions from all other Abelisaurids. 9 meters is a more likely estimate.

Mapusaurus is a different case, rather than having to much HP, it has to little. now I can't blame Sigma for using the 10.2 meter estimate, but alas, Wikipedia is wrong. If we scale from Giganotosaurus, the largest Mapusaurus would be roughly 10% larger than the Giganotosaurus holotype, or around 13.6 meters, which would make it larger than even the largest Giganotosaurus specimen, which is around 13.2 meters long according to the most reliable estimates.

Well, that's all I have for now. If you've noticed any card that has more or less HP than it should have, or is using outdated estimates, feel free to post it here.
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Clockwork
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DarkGricer,Aug 1 2013
05:46 AM
(Now, I realize that the HP calculator is based around feet, rather than meters, but I've realized that calculating using meters is easier, as all you have to do is add a 0 to the end of the length and you get the same amount of HP as you'd get when calculating with feet.)

There's part of your problem. 3 feet=/=1 meter.

We really don't care what estimates are 'conservative' and which estimates are 'liberal'. When making Aegisuchus, DF even said something that basically amounted to "yeah I know that this estimate is probably bullcrap, but hell no I'm not going to turn down a chance to give it this much HP."

This is a card game that includes dubious species, normal dinosaurs having elemental powers, Ice Ages having HP, mythological entities, characters from modern media, abnormal dinosaurs having elemental powers, and genetically engineered warbeasts. We're not that picky about scientific accuracy.
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DarkGricer
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There's part of your problem. 3 feet=/=1 meter.


I do realize that, but I have yet to see a single card that follows the HP calculator where the HP would be different depending on whether it's measured in feet or maters.

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We really don't care what estimates are 'conservative' and which estimates are 'liberal'. When making Aegisuchus, DF even said something that basically amounted to "yeah I know that this estimate is probably bullcrap, but hell no I'm not going to turn down a chance to give it this much HP."


Aegisuchus seems like a rather poor example here. Ekrixinatosaurus had to be stretched in pretty much every way to make it 11 meters, Aegisuchus has been estimated at 21 meters without stretching it as if it was being pulled into a black hole.
Not to mention according to the calculator, DF actually used some of the lowest estimates for it, as Crocodilian Armor adds 50 HP. 210 - 50 = 160 = basically 16 meters, which, as I've already said, is in the range of the very lowest estimates for Aegisuchus. Had DF really gone with the highest estimates, the card would've had around 270 HP.

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This is a card game that includes dubious species, normal dinosaurs having elemental powers, Ice Ages having HP, mythological entities, characters from modern media, abnormal dinosaurs having elemental powers, and genetically engineered warbeasts. We're not that picky about scientific accuracy.


I realize that, but the calculator is there for, well, logic reasons. There's no scientific was a 10 foot tall, unarmored bird could be as durable as a large Sauropod. Now, maybe there's also no reason that 10 foot tall bird should be 10 foot tall (It was actually only a 9.2 foot tall bird. :P ).

Not to mention, that still doesn't change that fact that some cards just don't follow the calculator whatsoever.
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Clockwork
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The cards that don't follow the calculator either have yet to be updated to it, and will be done in due time without your help, aren't supposed to, or actually do and you're missing the 'un-nerf the Terror Birds' part of the calculator.

The point is that we are free to use whatever stupid estimate we want, regardless of what you have to say about it.
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DarkGricer
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The cards that don't follow the calculator either have yet to be updated to it


I realize that, that's basically the point of this thread, to make a list of cards that still need to be updated.

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and will be done in due time without your help


Which I also realize, but I am simply here to remind the card makers. It's better to have someone remind you of something so you can update it in 1 month than to remember it yourself so after 7 months. Or at least, I think so.

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aren't supposed to


Isn't this basically the same as your first point?

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or actually do and you're missing the 'un-nerf the Terror Birds' part of the calculator.


HP is only one part of the calculator. If you really want Terror Birds to be all destroying machines of ultimate annihilation, that's fine. But it doesn't need to have more HP than it should. Just look at my Dryptosaurus suggestion (Which I actually updated in it's card form to have less HP and more damage). It has low enough HP to be 1 shotted by most cards, but it deals tons of damage and strikes before everything else, allowing it to destroy it's opponents before they can even make a move. A card should not need to have 'just' tons of HP to be good. Brontornis could have an ability that's basically a mix between Apatosaurus' Lightning Conductor and my Brontoscorpio suggestion's Thunderstorm and give Kelenken an ability related to it's speed.

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The point is that we are free to use whatever stupid estimate we want, regardless of what you have to say about it.


Which is completely fine with me, I'm just making suggestions.
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Clockwork
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DarkGricer,Aug 1 2013
02:22 PM
Which I also realize, but I am simply here to remind the card makers. It's better to have someone remind you of something so you can update it in 1 month than to remember it yourself so after 7 months. Or at least, I think so.

Isn't this basically the same as your first point?

HP is only one part of the calculator. If you really want Terror Birds to be all destroying machines of ultimate annihilation, that's fine. But it doesn't need to have more HP than it should.

1: If you're going to remind us, do it in a way that doesn't make it sound like you think you're an authority figure we need to listen to.
2: Not at all. Some haven't been updated yet, while some aren't meant to fit the calculator at all.
3: Do you realize what you just said? You literally just said that HP isn't the only thing calculated by the calculator that exists only to calculate HP, plus you completely ignored my actual point. We don't want Terror Birds to be whatever sarcastic hyperbole you just typed, but viable cards while not being idiotic representations of what a Terror Bird is. We have a specific clause on the calculator to give them and other cards that have no reason to be given good abilities an extra boost, allowing them to have a reason to exist. If you disagree with that, then that's nice. But you aren't the staff and don't get to decide that, or to try to push that opinion down our throats.
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DarkGricer
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If you're going to remind us, do it in a way that doesn't make it sound like you think you're an authority figure we need to listen to.


I seem to have a knack for sounding more bossy than I want to, so, sorry.

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Not at all. Some haven't been updated yet, while some aren't meant to fit the calculator at all.


But why are they not meant to fit it? Doesn't that beat the point of having the calculator in the first place?

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Do you realize what you just said? You literally just said that HP isn't the only thing calculated by the calculator that exists only to calculate HP,


Whoops, that was a mistype on my part. I meant to say that HP is only one part of what makes a card good.

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plus you completely ignored my actual point. We don't want Terror Birds to be whatever sarcastic hyperbole you just typed, but viable cards while not being idiotic representations of what a Terror Bird is.


Which can be done through abilities rather than HP, especially because of what you just said, you want them to be like Terror Birds, not Big Bird. Terror Birds where fast and powerful, but not the most sturdy things around (This especially counts for Kelenken), so, a speed based damage dealer would make sense, more than a tanky powerhouse. So, it's probably a better idea to give them useful abilities rather than tons of HP.

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We have a specific clause on the calculator to give them and other cards that have no reason to be given good abilities an extra boost,


Well, first of all, I was completely uninformed about that. I suppose Sigma forgot to tell me about that. And second of all, why should Terror Birds have no reason to get good abilities? In fact, there already is a Terror Bird who has a pretty useful ability. Phorusrhacos' Quick Runner ability makes it quite the pain in low level battles. I don't see a reason why other Terror Birds can't get similarly annoying abilities. YOu could even give Apex Predator a buff, so that it affects, for example, all Maniraptorians, so that it can not only destroy Terror Birds, but all types of Birds, but also various types of Dinosaurs, including Utahraptor, and maybe even VA, depending on if it counts as a Maniraptor or just as something nonexistent or something.

My point is, abilities can make a card just as good as HP can. Just look at Quetz. It's not remarkably strong, but it's ability makes it top-tier choice for any deck.
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Altaria
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DarkGricer,Aug 1 2013
06:56 PM
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Not at all. Some haven't been updated yet, while some aren't meant to fit the calculator at all.


But why are they not meant to fit it? Doesn't that beat the point of having the calculator in the first place?

Forgive me for joining in on the conversation. So, as you haven't been here for as long as Albinoraptor, ZD, or even myself (though pretty darn close) I'm not surprised you've missed some of the information we know. So, there are a couple reasons why some creatures can disregard the calculator. One reason is the clause Clocky mentioned. Some creatures are incredibly small, meaning that technically they would have no hp at all. One such example is my genome Mii, who according to the calculator should have an hp of about .5 or something. Another is for mythical creatures. With most myths there's rarely any reliable consensus as to what the official size is to it, likely because the creators died centuries ago without defining a size. One of my favorite examples of this being dinoflame's Phoenix, who has hp around the 200's. Another is for small creatures who would likely have no more than 10 hp. These cards are given a small boost forward to make them at least somewhat appealing in very very low tier battles.
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