| Welcome to Europeia! So what the heck is Europeia anyways? Can I join? So, I came here representing another region? I do not want to become a citizen. Where should I go? What offices are there for people to be elected into? What is there for me to do in Europeia? That answers most of my immediate questions. What if I have any more? |
| Split from AO Applications; Discussion on denied application | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 5 2015, 08:37 PM (188 Views) | |
| Moronist Decisions | Dec 5 2015, 08:37 PM Post #1 |
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I must disagree. Per the Criminal Code (2014), s23,
Therefore, intellectual property is a concept present in Europeian law. I will point out that, while outdated, a recent Advisory Opinion, Re: Ownership of Published Content [SEPTEMBER 2014] TC 3 has decided on issues related to intellectual property before. |
Moronist Decisions ED EOB EIN ESH ESS![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Formerly: Attorney General, Associate Justice/PIP, World Assembly Delegate, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of World Assembly Affairs, Senator | |
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| Notolecta | Dec 5 2015, 09:10 PM Post #2 |
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Notty
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MD is completely right, moreover we have even previously discussed laws to clarify how that clause works and what intellectual property is, but those attempts always stalled out, leaving us instead with a vaugely worded clause that the court has to interpret when cases pertaining to it come up. |
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The RT. Hon. Notolecta ESE OR1 ESH ESS Offices held in Europeia Offices held elsewhere Medals, ribbons, and other awards The best kind of diplomacy | |
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| hyanygo | Dec 5 2015, 09:20 PM Post #3 |
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I agree with MD. This was declined in error. |
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| Drecq | Dec 5 2015, 10:53 PM Post #4 |
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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I disagree. The question here is who the property belongs to and that isnt a question answered by Europeia law, even though we have the concept in the criminal code, but by rl law. I have no interest in deciding he does not own intellectual property he does in fact rl legally own. Not to mention that that could in fact be a ToS violation. I'd rather this court not be forced to choose between upkeeping rp law and not depriving him of his rl property and rights. Or are we saying that the findings of this court would only be legal if the court found that the outcome according to rp law is the same as according to rl law? Accepting this AO request would be a legal rl minefield I want nothing to do with. |
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| Notolecta | Dec 6 2015, 11:10 AM Post #5 |
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Notty
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No we are saying that you don't have a choice but to decide at some point because the concept of intelectual property is in fact in our law. Our to law can have differences from to law in terms of intellectual property anyway, there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't mean we are violating the tos(because the admins could still act in accordance with real life). The bottom line is until intellectual property is properly fleshed out in our laws, the court has no choice but to interpret with what little it has. It is the courts job to determine what the current owner is until such time as the law is fleshed out, no where in the law does it say we are defaulting you real life up laws. |
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The RT. Hon. Notolecta ESE OR1 ESH ESS Offices held in Europeia Offices held elsewhere Medals, ribbons, and other awards The best kind of diplomacy | |
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| Drecq | Dec 6 2015, 01:41 PM Post #6 |
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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I disagree. First of all, I can decline any AO request as long as I have a reasoned explanation. Second, it's not the courts job to invent laws where the Senate has not made any. Third, the court deciding differently than rl would in fact likely result in a ToS violation because, unless the admins totally ignored the court rendering it absolutely powerless, we would have given someone permission to break rl intellectual rights. If the only possibility is to decide in accordance with rl law or be absolutely ignored then there is no reason to invent the necessary legal rules to decide it. Just use the rl rules. Edit: as to the concept being in our legal system, the only current text on it is the criminal code, which states that someone who reproduces intellectual property without the consent of the owner is guilty of plagiarism. And I as justice would ask the admins to decide in such a case, as I did here, who the owner is because that's as far as europeian law will take us. Edited by Drecq, Dec 6 2015, 01:46 PM.
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| Notolecta | Dec 6 2015, 01:54 PM Post #7 |
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Notty
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You can deny an AO but if that clause of the criminal code comes up in a case a descion must be made, and going "the senate needs to give us an answer" wouldn't work in a criminal case, you have to decide based on what you have, no choice. The court has to rule not tell the admins to rule because that's not the way our system is set up. Also the Admins can remove IP violating content without the court being rendered useless, the court would still be liable to determine if the individual broke the laws of the region and that would likely result in a ban, which admin action probably wouldn't because complying with the ToS wouldn't require banning or punishing in any way the violator, so because of this we can enforce a difference ruleset for what is acceptable use here, in terms of what we penalize, when compared to what RL requires while still having the admins remove any content that violates the ToS. Drecq on an off note you overuse your right to deny AO's and seem to simply avoid having the court actually interpret. This bullshit where the court just says "the senate needs to fix it" without even considering the fact that until the law changes there still has to be an enforceable interpretation(granted that may not be consistent between judges) is absurd and needs to stop. |
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The RT. Hon. Notolecta ESE OR1 ESH ESS Offices held in Europeia Offices held elsewhere Medals, ribbons, and other awards The best kind of diplomacy | |
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| Drecq | Dec 6 2015, 02:09 PM Post #8 |
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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Yes, in a criminal case there wouldnt be a problem, but deciding who owns what, possibly contra legem in RL would be a huge problem. And the court can definitely ask the admins to rule on who the owner is. The Court can ask for expert testimony in a criminal case. So the Court would not be deciding who owns what and simply punish a possible criminal, which we can do without violating RL rights. And as to my overusing the right to deny AOs. Lets look at why I have denied: 1. No specific stake. 2. Not AO territory because the Court was asked to judge someones guilt or innocence in a criminal matter, thats criminal case stuff. 3. No jurisdiction over Ordinances, where I understand some disagree with me, but the fact that Ordinances are not Laws is on my side there. 4. No specific stake. 5. This thing. Yeah. Ive denied more than probably any other CJ before me. The specific stake ones could have been fixed by asking the AG to request it, which he did in the last one and which was then promptly accepted. Suddenly we are down to three. The criminal case thing is a legal issue because the CoR guarantees someone innocence until judged guilty in a court of law and preemptively deciding someones guilt in an AO would be, well, illegal. The Ordinances thing I stand by. No Jurisdiction isnt something that just goes away. And then of course this, where I believe I have a good reason not to accept it. So saying that I always say:"The Senate needs to fix it." is just plain wrong and the implication that I deny applications because I dont want to do the work offends me. |
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| Notolecta | Dec 6 2015, 02:17 PM Post #9 |
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Notty
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Well the senate needs to fix it thing was actually a reference to an AO the court accepted and released that was basically a non-answer, I'd need a second to go remember what it was, and both the jurisdictional one and this one are frankly complete bullshit. |
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The RT. Hon. Notolecta ESE OR1 ESH ESS Offices held in Europeia Offices held elsewhere Medals, ribbons, and other awards The best kind of diplomacy | |
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| Drecq | Dec 6 2015, 02:26 PM Post #10 |
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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I remember the AO. The decision to go with a non-answer was made because after months the Court was still split on opposite sides of the opinion. And whether you agree with me on the jurisdictional one or this one doesnt really matter. I didnt deny these because I dont want to do the work, but because I well and truly believe that the Court shouldnt reach into matters where either it doesnt have jurisdiction or where it will, not may but definitely will, do more harm than good. If you dont like it then ask the President to nominate you the next time theres a vacancy, we had enough of them in the recent past, and I will be more than willing to resign my position as CJ and go back to being an AJ. |
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| Drecq | Dec 6 2015, 02:29 PM Post #11 |
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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Im splitting the discussion on whether Im a dumbass who should have decided to accept the AO to another thread because this really isnt the place for it.
Edited by Drecq, Dec 6 2015, 02:34 PM.
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