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Why I still believe in the GAP; Opinon
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Topic Started: Dec 15 2014, 05:51 AM (542 Views)
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HEM
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Dec 15 2014, 07:27 PM
Post #16
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour
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- Drecq
- Dec 15 2014, 06:35 PM
Reading this I cant seem to shake the feeling that nobody actually read the legislation up for debate in the Senate. We arent getting rid of the GAP. We are simply integrating the Foreign Cultivation Act into other relevant legislation and getting rid of the legal basis for the Council. The same Council that has never existed and likely never will exist. If anything I believe the integration would make it harder to get rid of the GAP as you could no longer simply repeal one Law but would have to pick through at least two to fully get rid of every last vestige.
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There are those that will argue that the repeal of the Foreign Cultivation Act does not necessarily mean the end of the GAP, but I disagree. The continual de-institutionalization of the GAP in the name of "flexibility" has brought less activity and less progress on the program -- not more. We will continue to push the GAP out of public sight, until the only place people will read about its designs are in history books.
I think I pretty much addressed the contents of the Act and your rebuttal head on. Now, you may disagree with my assessment, but that is another matter entirely
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Drecq
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Dec 15 2014, 07:45 PM
Post #17
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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The actual activity isnt something the Senate can regulate. What our purview is is the legislation. The law will still allow for it. Your beef is with the executive not with us. So yes, it still seems like you didnt read the proposed legislation. Either that or you dont know the difference in purpose between the different branches of government. Further, this doesnt de-institutionalize the GAP it simply redistributes the relevant passages in order to assign them to relevant legislation with a larger overreaching purpose. What you are arguing is akin to saying the legislative would work better if you would take the legislative section of the Constitution and make it its own separate act.
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The Ven. Drecq ER ES ES ESH EEQ EED OR4 OR3 WE3


 Presidential Awards Order of Republica
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Current Positions Vice Chancellor of Europeia Attorney General of Europeia Senate Clerk Captain of the Europeian Republican Navy -Reserve Member of the Europeian Bar Association Past Positions Speaker of the Europeian Senate Deputy Speaker of the Europeian Senate Senator of the Europeian Senate Chief Justice of the Europeian High Court Primus Inter Pares of the Europeian High Court Associate Justice of the Europeian High Court Vice President of Europeia Minister of the Interior Minister of Citizenship Integration Grand Admiral of the Europeian Republican Navy Deputy Minister of Foreign Cultivation Deputy Minister of Citizenship Integration
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HEM
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Dec 15 2014, 08:30 PM
Post #18
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour
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- Drecq
- Dec 15 2014, 07:45 PM
The actual activity isnt something the Senate can regulate. What our purview is is the legislation. The law will still allow for it. Your beef is with the executive not with us. So yes, it still seems like you didnt read the proposed legislation. Either that or you dont know the difference in purpose between the different branches of government. Further, this doesnt de-institutionalize the GAP it simply redistributes the relevant passages in order to assign them to relevant legislation with a larger overreaching purpose. What you are arguing is akin to saying the legislative would work better if you would take the legislative section of the Constitution and make it its own separate act. You are gutting the GAP and distributing it every which way. This will only cause it to lose more focus and purpose than it already has with the dissolution of the Ministry of Foreign Cultivation. Furthermore, the Council represented the "endgame" or "success stage" of the GAP, and the sweeping away of this provision essentially says that any grand vision that was associated with the GAP is gone, replaced with some piecemeal organization that will be on a lesser level than the ambassador corp.
Yes, my primary beef is with the executive. But what the Senate is doing has no practical purpose aside from taking the GAP backwards. There is no benefit of your approach, as Senator Anumia has pointed out, aside from our region's seemingly obsessive desire to have as few pieces of legislation as possible
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Lethen
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Dec 15 2014, 08:57 PM
Post #19
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Remember when I was famous? Neither do I.
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I agree with Skizzy. All the time and effort I put into the GAP could have done so much more in another area of the region, and it doesn't help when the political support is drying up and the expectations seem to be higher for Cultivation than other Ministries. It's adding pressure to an already high-pressure ministry*, and it basically turned me off of staying involved in Cabinet for the next few terms.
HEM does make a valid broader point though - Europeians have become so used to doing things well that, when things don't go exactly as planned or take longer than projected, we can't deal with it.
*And before anyone says "This is just a game" and "don't let it get to you," remember that the line is often blurred. For every time that I wanted to just blow off my Europeian duties for a day or so since it's a game, there were so many more times where I'd find a freshly-made post or new topic being critical and unapologetic, giving no leeway or room for excuses. How can I say this is "just a game" when so many people take things seriously enough to not give into that reasoning?
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me, basically (click)
A letter to a friend By the Prophetical Blessing of Nethel, Supreme Chancellor of the Republic of Europeia and the states within, Destined Overseer of His rightful yet forgotten realms of Estalcia and Old Europe and Crystal Falls, Defender of the Faith and New Jersey, and Heir to the concept of Sarcasm
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Drecq
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Dec 15 2014, 09:07 PM
Post #20
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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- HEM
- Dec 15 2014, 08:30 PM
- Drecq
- Dec 15 2014, 07:45 PM
The actual activity isnt something the Senate can regulate. What our purview is is the legislation. The law will still allow for it. Your beef is with the executive not with us. So yes, it still seems like you didnt read the proposed legislation. Either that or you dont know the difference in purpose between the different branches of government. Further, this doesnt de-institutionalize the GAP it simply redistributes the relevant passages in order to assign them to relevant legislation with a larger overreaching purpose. What you are arguing is akin to saying the legislative would work better if you would take the legislative section of the Constitution and make it its own separate act.
You are gutting the GAP and distributing it every which way. This will only cause it to lose more focus and purpose than it already has with the dissolution of the Ministry of Foreign Cultivation. Furthermore, the Council represented the "endgame" or "success stage" of the GAP, and the sweeping away of this provision essentially says that any grand vision that was associated with the GAP is gone, replaced with some piecemeal organization that will be on a lesser level than the ambassador corp. Yes, my primary beef is with the executive. But what the Senate is doing has no practical purpose aside from taking the GAP backwards. There is no benefit of your approach, as Senator Anumia has pointed out, aside from our region's seemingly obsessive desire to have as few pieces of legislation as possible  You are assuming that the GAP is identical with the Foreign Cultivation Act. It isnt. The Foreign Cultivation Act makes the GAP possible but they arent identical. We arent gutting the GAP. If you want it to have its own Ministry again go talk with the President. Even after the change that would remain possible. You want more Partnership Agreements go find some regions and sing them. Even after the change that will remain possible. You want a grand unifying vision talk to the executive. You want focus and purpose talk to the candidates for President and push for a reinstated MoFC with you as Minister. Then do something. Dont expect the Senate to keep pointless legislation simply because it makes you feel better. Or if you want pointless feel good legislation let us repeal this and get something more effective in there like the "Puppies and Kittens Act (2014)". As to the Council, it was an endgame that was never likely to happen and with the downgrading of the GAP from a central column of our foreign policy to just another tool on our belt it has become far less likely. If ever it does become a possibility we can reinstate it then. But I wouldnt hold my breath. Not to mention that the legislation for the Council is pointless even then as the executive doesnt need authorizing legislation for internal restructuring, which is what the Council would be.
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The Ven. Drecq ER ES ES ESH EEQ EED OR4 OR3 WE3


 Presidential Awards Order of Republica
 | Order of Senatia (Awarded twice)
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 | Order of Scholarship
 | Order of Edification
 | Order of Community Third and Fourth Class
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Current Positions Vice Chancellor of Europeia Attorney General of Europeia Senate Clerk Captain of the Europeian Republican Navy -Reserve Member of the Europeian Bar Association Past Positions Speaker of the Europeian Senate Deputy Speaker of the Europeian Senate Senator of the Europeian Senate Chief Justice of the Europeian High Court Primus Inter Pares of the Europeian High Court Associate Justice of the Europeian High Court Vice President of Europeia Minister of the Interior Minister of Citizenship Integration Grand Admiral of the Europeian Republican Navy Deputy Minister of Foreign Cultivation Deputy Minister of Citizenship Integration
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HEM
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Dec 15 2014, 09:15 PM
Post #21
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour
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- Drecq
- Dec 15 2014, 09:07 PM
- HEM
- Dec 15 2014, 08:30 PM
- Drecq
- Dec 15 2014, 07:45 PM
The actual activity isnt something the Senate can regulate. What our purview is is the legislation. The law will still allow for it. Your beef is with the executive not with us. So yes, it still seems like you didnt read the proposed legislation. Either that or you dont know the difference in purpose between the different branches of government. Further, this doesnt de-institutionalize the GAP it simply redistributes the relevant passages in order to assign them to relevant legislation with a larger overreaching purpose. What you are arguing is akin to saying the legislative would work better if you would take the legislative section of the Constitution and make it its own separate act.
You are gutting the GAP and distributing it every which way. This will only cause it to lose more focus and purpose than it already has with the dissolution of the Ministry of Foreign Cultivation. Furthermore, the Council represented the "endgame" or "success stage" of the GAP, and the sweeping away of this provision essentially says that any grand vision that was associated with the GAP is gone, replaced with some piecemeal organization that will be on a lesser level than the ambassador corp. Yes, my primary beef is with the executive. But what the Senate is doing has no practical purpose aside from taking the GAP backwards. There is no benefit of your approach, as Senator Anumia has pointed out, aside from our region's seemingly obsessive desire to have as few pieces of legislation as possible 
You are assuming that the GAP is identical with the Foreign Cultivation Act. It isnt. The Foreign Cultivation Act makes the GAP possible but they arent identical. We arent gutting the GAP. If you want it to have its own Ministry again go talk with the President. Even after the change that would remain possible. You want more Partnership Agreements go find some regions and sing them. Even after the change that will remain possible. You want a grand unifying vision talk to the executive. You want focus and purpose talk to the candidates for President and push for a reinstated MoFC with you as Minister. Then do something. Dont expect the Senate to keep pointless legislation simply because it makes you feel better. Or if you want pointless feel good legislation let us repeal this and get something more effective in there like the "Puppies and Kittens Act (2014)". As to the Council, it was an endgame that was never likely to happen and with the downgrading of the GAP from a central column of our foreign policy to just another tool on our belt it has become far less likely. If ever it does become a possibility we can reinstate it then. But I wouldnt hold my breath. Not to mention that the legislation for the Council is pointless even then as the executive doesnt need authorizing legislation for internal restructuring, which is what the Council would be. What is incredibly frustrating about your response is that you are pretending that you are making a "legislative" decision, for the sake of "legislative efficiency" with no political considerations attached. In reality, your support of this legislative measure is influenced -- at least in part -- by your clear disdain for the GAP. Furthermore, you try to pretend that this legislation action makes no substantive changes to the GAP, and then clearly acknowledge that it reflects a "downgrading" of the GAP. A downgrading that the Senate is now apart of. The Senate is helping set policy on the importance of the GAP, and any insistence to the contrary is just...contrary to evidence.
I have no problem with you opposing a focus on the GAP. But I do have a little problem with you pretending this action is independent from policy and basically anybody who believes the contrary is some big dummy who hasn't "read the bill". This move is a policy action reflecting what the Senate believes the future role of the GAP in the region. The Senate is not acting on any public instructions from the Executive, the Senate is -- and I simply cannot emphasize this enough -- helping set policy.
I disagree with the policy, and so I am saying so.`
I understand that the Senate is not -- in law -- fully shuttering the GAP. But this action removes it from prominence, and actually closes doors in terms of the tools and options open to political policymakers in the region.
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Drecq
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Dec 15 2014, 09:26 PM
Post #22
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EMPEROR OF THAT PLACE OVER THERE, RULER OF THINGS AND PEOPLES, BREEZEBORN, MOTHER OF LIZARDS
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- HEM
- Dec 15 2014, 09:15 PM
- Drecq
- Dec 15 2014, 09:07 PM
- HEM
- Dec 15 2014, 08:30 PM
- Drecq
- Dec 15 2014, 07:45 PM
The actual activity isnt something the Senate can regulate. What our purview is is the legislation. The law will still allow for it. Your beef is with the executive not with us. So yes, it still seems like you didnt read the proposed legislation. Either that or you dont know the difference in purpose between the different branches of government. Further, this doesnt de-institutionalize the GAP it simply redistributes the relevant passages in order to assign them to relevant legislation with a larger overreaching purpose. What you are arguing is akin to saying the legislative would work better if you would take the legislative section of the Constitution and make it its own separate act.
You are gutting the GAP and distributing it every which way. This will only cause it to lose more focus and purpose than it already has with the dissolution of the Ministry of Foreign Cultivation. Furthermore, the Council represented the "endgame" or "success stage" of the GAP, and the sweeping away of this provision essentially says that any grand vision that was associated with the GAP is gone, replaced with some piecemeal organization that will be on a lesser level than the ambassador corp. Yes, my primary beef is with the executive. But what the Senate is doing has no practical purpose aside from taking the GAP backwards. There is no benefit of your approach, as Senator Anumia has pointed out, aside from our region's seemingly obsessive desire to have as few pieces of legislation as possible 
You are assuming that the GAP is identical with the Foreign Cultivation Act. It isnt. The Foreign Cultivation Act makes the GAP possible but they arent identical. We arent gutting the GAP. If you want it to have its own Ministry again go talk with the President. Even after the change that would remain possible. You want more Partnership Agreements go find some regions and sing them. Even after the change that will remain possible. You want a grand unifying vision talk to the executive. You want focus and purpose talk to the candidates for President and push for a reinstated MoFC with you as Minister. Then do something. Dont expect the Senate to keep pointless legislation simply because it makes you feel better. Or if you want pointless feel good legislation let us repeal this and get something more effective in there like the "Puppies and Kittens Act (2014)". As to the Council, it was an endgame that was never likely to happen and with the downgrading of the GAP from a central column of our foreign policy to just another tool on our belt it has become far less likely. If ever it does become a possibility we can reinstate it then. But I wouldnt hold my breath. Not to mention that the legislation for the Council is pointless even then as the executive doesnt need authorizing legislation for internal restructuring, which is what the Council would be.
What is incredibly frustrating about your response is that you are pretending that you are making a "legislative" decision, for the sake of "legislative efficiency" with no political considerations attached. In reality, your support of this legislative measure is influenced -- at least in part -- by your clear disdain for the GAP. Furthermore, you try to pretend that this legislation action makes no substantive changes to the GAP, and then clearly acknowledge that it reflects a "downgrading" of the GAP. A downgrading that the Senate is now apart of. The Senate is helping set policy on the importance of the GAP, and any insistence to the contrary is just...contrary to evidence. I have no problem with you opposing a focus on the GAP. But I do have a little problem with you pretending this action is independent from policy and basically anybody who believes the contrary is some big dummy who hasn't "read the bill". This move is a policy action reflecting what the Senate believes the future role of the GAP in the region. The Senate is not acting on any public instructions from the Executive, the Senate is -- and I simply cannot emphasize this enough -- helping set policy. I disagree with the policy, and so I am saying so.` I understand that the Senate is not -- in law -- fully shuttering the GAP. But this action removes it from prominence, and actually closes doors in terms of the tools and options open to political policymakers in the region. I have been one of the most consistently pro-gap people in Europeia. I even was the first Architect and its Deputy Minister. For the entire time the MoFC existed I repeatedly told people to manage their expectations and that it will take time. This entire change really is for the sake of legislative efficiency. The only one turning this political is you. As to the Senate downgrading the GAP, it was already downgraded and the Senate had nothing at all to do with it. All I was doing was stating a regrettable fact, but a fact none the less.
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The Ven. Drecq ER ES ES ESH EEQ EED OR4 OR3 WE3


 Presidential Awards Order of Republica
 | Order of Senatia (Awarded twice)
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 | Order of Scholarship
 | Order of Edification
 | Order of Community Third and Fourth Class
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 | Order of Dedication
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HEM
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Dec 15 2014, 09:29 PM
Post #23
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour
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A fact that the Senate is now contributing to.
I am not questioning your work ethic or past contributions, I am questioning this supposed separation of policymaking and legislative efficacy.
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Vinage Vinage
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Dec 15 2014, 09:49 PM
Post #24
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Gave Up Being Cool To Be Here
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I'm curious where the hell I was when that original article was written. Anyway, looking over it, it made me realise how quickly it took for me to (generally) get up to speed with what has occurred in Europeia since I was previously active. This was nearly a year ago. Personally I don't see that as a good sign, but that is for another discussion. Not related to this article.
There's quite a few good points in that original article about why Foreign Affairs, and therefore a long-term project like the GAP, struggles term-by-term. Our FA agenda has been reasonably status quo for a long time. When it comes to moving things forward, such as various treaties etc, these take several terms and months to be hashed out, the Foreign Affairs Minister who proposes, Senate who ratifies and the President who signs might not have been the same ones that we did start with.
Perhaps this is a sign that our Presidents, should they be able to survive it, need longer in a term to allow this grand projects to form and bloom during their Presidency. That may allow something like the GAP to progress
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Sopo
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Dec 15 2014, 10:47 PM
Post #25
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Lord High Chancellor Emeritus
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It was Anumia's idea and he had 3 terms to make it work.
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 The Right Honorable Sopo Associate Administrator for Discord - High Priest of Nethel - Lord High Chancellor EmeritusMore Info I once was... Lord High Chancellor and Heir Apparent ~ 26th, 32nd, and 42nd President ~ Speaker of the 27th Senate Vice President ~ Minister of Radio ~ Attorney General ~ Minister of Foreign Affairs ~ Minister of Culture ~ Minister of Welfare ~ Chair of the Citizens' AssemblyClan  Clan Chastain Sopo (Chief), Netz, Marnip, WestGuam, Rand, GraVandius, and AramorAll Hail Nethel, Praise Be Unto Him  I am the High Priest Join the Movement Gaze Upon the Truth Offer Your Prayers
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Common-Sense Politics
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Dec 15 2014, 10:49 PM
Post #26
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Incapable of Bullshit
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- Sopo
- Dec 15 2014, 10:47 PM
It was Anumia's idea and he had 3 terms to make it work. Does it therefore follow that it is unworkable? I would say certainly not.
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The Venerable Imperator Common-Sense Politics, ER ESE EBS EOB EC ES OR1-4 Father to McEntire
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Sopo
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Dec 15 2014, 10:50 PM
Post #27
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Lord High Chancellor Emeritus
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- Common-Sense Politics
- Dec 15 2014, 10:49 PM
- Sopo
- Dec 15 2014, 10:47 PM
It was Anumia's idea and he had 3 terms to make it work.
Does it therefore follow that it is unworkable? I would say certainly not. No, I'm just pointing out to Vinage (maybe that was unclear) that Anumia had a relatively long time to work on his grand project, and that wasn't enough.
Edited by Sopo, Dec 15 2014, 10:51 PM.
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 The Right Honorable Sopo Associate Administrator for Discord - High Priest of Nethel - Lord High Chancellor EmeritusMore Info I once was... Lord High Chancellor and Heir Apparent ~ 26th, 32nd, and 42nd President ~ Speaker of the 27th Senate Vice President ~ Minister of Radio ~ Attorney General ~ Minister of Foreign Affairs ~ Minister of Culture ~ Minister of Welfare ~ Chair of the Citizens' AssemblyClan  Clan Chastain Sopo (Chief), Netz, Marnip, WestGuam, Rand, GraVandius, and AramorAll Hail Nethel, Praise Be Unto Him  I am the High Priest Join the Movement Gaze Upon the Truth Offer Your Prayers
"I am an enigma, I accept that. I understand that the pages of history do not have room for every man, for every dream, or for every brother. I know that deep down, but I wish it were otherwise every so often." ~ The Fourth Book of Nethel
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Rach
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Dec 15 2014, 10:55 PM
Post #28
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At Least 5% Sugar
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Wouldn't projects like COPs II and the attempt to build a NS Library be in a similar vein as the GAP?
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HEM
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Dec 15 2014, 11:41 PM
Post #29
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour
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- Rach
- Dec 15 2014, 10:55 PM
Wouldn't projects like COPs II and the attempt to build a NS Library be in a similar vein as the GAP? Sure, and my conclusion casts hope that we as a region will pursue such things
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North East Somerset
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Dec 16 2014, 12:16 AM
Post #30
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Wheels within Wheels
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What is the purpose of the GAP?
In the unlikely but not impossible event a region that has signed a 3 month pact with us goes on to become the next Albion or whatever, what do we gain?
An ally? A rival? Will the pact even make a difference compared to our direct interactions with their leadership? No. I mean honestly what a waste of time.
The only thing GAP is good for is recruiting the members of the regions that sign up for it, to here.
But having tried it out for however long we have, I can't think of many quality new members to have come from GAP regions, so I'd have to proffer its a very inefficient recruitment tool.
It's just a massive gimmick of a scheme, a total red herring. We don't even know what purpose it serves.... It has all the hallmarks of colonialism - that is what it is - barely concealed colonialism - in all it's pretentious, pointless and profitless glory.
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