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Afrikaners were Monsterous: A history of South Africa; A response to LegendofPie
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Topic Started: Oct 2 2014, 03:45 PM (306 Views)
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Rach
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Oct 2 2014, 03:45 PM
Post #1
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Dutch Colonization of South Africa
In 1652 the Dutch found a refreshment station at Cape via the Dutch East India Company, known as VoC. The Dutch East India Company held wide political powers and it could declare wars, establish colonies and negotiate treaties. The sole purpose for VoC was to do business and to obtain as much profit as it can, which is why the VoC is known as one of the many vicious mercantile companies of colonialism. It should be noted that the Dutch people who worked for VoC were those from the lower classes, these were people who were sometimes criminals and often completely illiterate and had low levels of education.
In South Africa, the VoC took steps to dominate the local area. They did this by enslaving the local Khoikhoin population and stealing their cattle. Here are a few of the journal entries of Governor Jan Van Riebeeck:
December 13 1652
Today the hottentots came with thousands of cattle and sheep close to our ford, so that their cattle nearly mixed with ours. We feel vexed to see so many fine head of cattle, and not be able to buy to any considerable extent. If it had been indeed allowed, we had opportunity today to deprive them of nearly 10,000 head, which, however, if we obtain orders to that effect can be done at any time, and even more conveniently, because they will have greater confidence in us. With 150 men, 10,000 or 11,000 head of black cattle might be obtained with danger of losing one man; and many savages might be taken without resistance, in order to be sent as slaves to India, as they still always come to us unarmed.
April 5 and 6 1660
The Kaapmans strongly insisted that we had been appropriating more and more of their land, which had been theirs all these centuries, and on which they had been accustomed to let their cattle graze, etc. When asked if they would be allowed to do such a thing if they went to Holland and they added: “It would be of little consequence if you people stayed here at the fort, but you come right into the interior and select the best land for yourselves, without even asked whether we mind or whether it will cause us an inconvenience.
They said they should at least be allowed to go and gather bitter almonds, which grow wild in abundance there, and to dig for roots as winterfood. This likewise could not be granted them for they would have too many opportunities of doing harm to the colonialists and furthermore we shall need the almonds ourselves this year to plant the proposed protective hedge or defensive barrier. These reasons were, of course, not mentioned to them, but when they persisted in their request, eventually they had to be told that they had now lost the land as a result of the war and had no alternative but to admit it was no longer theirs, the more so because they could be not be induced to restore the stolen cattle which they had unlawfully taken from us in a defensive war, won by the sword, as it were, and we intended to keep it.
The Dutch as the VoC took the lands of the Khoikhoin (or Kaapmans, or hottentots) and also their cattle. They impoverished them. Furthermore, the Dutch continued to expand northward and engaged more and more in massacre and genocide. The only escape for the natives of South Africa was to serve as menial labour for the Dutch. Writers such as Sir John Barrow describe how cruel the Dutch were and how they would whip them, a gentle punishment compared to what some of the Dutch would do:
Firing small shot into the legs and thighs of a Hottentot is a punishment not unknown to the monsters who inhabit the neighbourhood of the Camtoos river. And though death is not unfrequently the consequence of punishing these poor wretches in a moment of rage, yet this gives little concern to the farmer; for though they are to all intents and purposes his slaves, they were are not transferable property. It is this circumstance, which in his mind, make their lives less valuable, and their treatment more inhuman
Dampier wrote the following:
Those of the Hottentots that live by the Dutch town have their greatest subsistence from the Dutch, for there is one or more of them belonging to every house. They do all of servile work. Three or four of their nearest relations sit at the doors or near the Dutch house, waiting for scraps and fragments that came from the table
The growth of the Dutch population in South Africa not working for the Dutch East India Company was slow initially. During the years 1672 and 1679 it grew from 168 to 249. However, following the ending of the Edict of Nantes, huge amounts of French Huguenot refugees in the Netherlands were encouraged to move to South Africa (since a return to France was now impossible). As well, many other very poor members of Dutch society also moved to South Africa and by 1752 the white population was 5,419.
Yet because of the fact that they were poorer and lacked the knowledge to build a civilization based on commerce or industry, they relied on subsidence farming and they depended on cheap menial labour. When they moved more towards the interior they did so to maintain their economy and their standard of “civilization”. These were the Afrikaners, and the French members were incorporated within the Dutch colony. Since the distance was very great between the Netherlands and South Africa and because the colonialists were rather different than the majority of Dutch society they became their own group. These were the Afrikaners. It should be noted that they used their Calvinist faith to justify the subjection of the local populations. Upon the arrival of the British the Afrikaners, or the Boers trekked towards the interior and continued to subjugate and kill the local populations.
And now a letter for LegendofPie.
This is the origins of Dutch colonization in South Africa. It is quite different than the vision presented by LegendofPie who described the Afrikaners as “having a yearning love for their dream of freedom since they landed in Cape of Good Hope in 1652.”.
LegendofPie also describes how the Afrikaners have always wanted to be free and to be on their own. This is untrue, they relied on local African populations to support their economy. Also, when I say relied, I really mean they relied on them by basically enslaving them. This is not really “on their own”.
My initial response was not as strong as it is now. That initial response was based off of what I knew off the top of my head. I saw a section on South Africa at the library today and took out a couple of books on the history of South Africa. Quite frankly it makes me feel ashamed to have ancestors who are Dutch. This stuff is horrendous beyond what I initially imagined. LegendofPie, the stuff you have written is insensitive and quite frankly shameful. It’s quite clear how and why Apartheid was formed and the long basis behind it.
In fact, often it is the British who are supporting the Afrikaners in their endeavours. Once gold mines are discovered in the interior they use African labour to mine them. Apartheid is formed basically to continue these long running and quite disgusting traditions. So truly, LegendofPie I hope you were joking with your article because it is a farce. To hear you describe how the Afrikaners are a minority who are not free in the current democratic system is absurd to the tenth degree. We are talking about a group which came to South Africa and engaged in genocide and all manners of despicable behaviour. Say what you will at the time, but using the early history of the Afrikaners and saying they were looking for freedom is pretty bullshit.
Bullshit because they originally came alongside the VoC to profit from the natives and bullshit because the Huguenots travelled to Holland initially to escape religious persecution there. But they travelled from Holland to South Africa for economic opportunities and to engage in a type of economy that required cheap African labour. This is not yearning for freedom. The Afrikaners engaged in atrocities. There is no defense. LegendofPie, you do not have the right to talk about how the Afrikaners require more representation or freedom. It truly angers me that you can portray the Afrikaners as a victim.
I have not even gotten to Apartheid yet. Yet, the more I read about South Africa the more I realize that even the general notions I know are not as horrifying as the truth. I’m not even sure if I want to read about Apartheid. Yes, South Africa is surely not perfect and has many issues. But with all the shit that the Afrikaners put the country through it is no wonder. The way they have warped it, it is amazing it simply did not descend into fighting when Nelson Mandela became President. I don’t think I really even have a conclusion but I would love to hear your response LegendofPie. I am calling you out on your bullshit and I put a lot of my morning into writing this piece as I read with morbid curiosity about South Africa. So you better give me a response.
Edited by Rach, Oct 2 2014, 04:28 PM.
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♥ Love and Kindness are never wasted ♥ The 2011 President of the Year Queen of Balder Unofficial Navy Girl
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Shin
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Oct 2 2014, 04:12 PM
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Anumia
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Oct 2 2014, 04:18 PM
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This was a solid, informative article until it came around to the part where you called out LegendofPie. I understand why you feel as strongly as you do, but I feel like it should have been at the least a separate post or perhaps kept in his thread, while leaving your historical essay separate; the call-out at the end, to me, lessens the academic value of reading.
Still, history is history, and history is interesting.
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Signature The One. The Allfather.-- "He stood with his head held high, critics screaming, and did what he truly felt was best for Europeia." - Common-Sense Politics He's the only person in NationStates who can successfully combine outrageous pomposity with a real support for democracy. - Indycar Racing Do I really need to talk about Anumia? The guy can write like Shakespeare, think like Socrates, and I learned on EuroChat yesterday that he can sing too. I bet he's hung like a bull moose. - Common-Sense Politics Anumia, you have a great mind. - Lethen Someone like Anumia only comes around once in a while. - Kabanatuanistan To be perfectly honest, I'm just going to trust Anumia and approve - Falconias I saw your amendment and wondered whether I had died and gone to heaven. It's beautiful. - Swakistek This is why we should all listen to Anumia. Clearly he is a god amongst men. - Fortana | You are not all knowing. You are not all powerful. You are not Anumia. - Griff I have the greatest respect for Anumia - don't let this thread fool you - but I wish he'd stop winning. - Hyanygo Actually, Hy, the things I wanted to say were: Go Anumia! I love Anumia! - Lethen Anumia with whatever power I have I hereby declare you the winner of everything, forever. - Fortana Long live the Emperor! All Hail Anumia, King of Kings! - Peaceful Llamas How about we realize democracy here is flawed and we make Anumia our dictator? - karthikking I agree with you, Anumia, as all Europeians should. - Swakistek To be honest I'm just going to vote whatever way Anumia votes. - Fortana |
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Oct 2 2014, 04:19 PM
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- Anumia
- Oct 2 2014, 04:18 PM
This was a solid, informative article until it came around to the part where you called out LegendofPie. I understand why you feel as strongly as you do, but I feel like it should have been at the least a separate post or perhaps kept in his thread, while leaving your historical essay separate; the call-out at the end, to me, lessens the academic value of reading.
Still, history is history, and history is interesting. I believe Rach's point entirely was to call someone out... after laying an academic foundation.
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Cpt.Carrot
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Oct 2 2014, 04:20 PM
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Boogy Woogy Bugle Boy of Company "B"
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I haven't read many of Van Riebeeck's journals, or actually encountered some of these events in my studies. May I ask which texts you read?
I know what the Voortrekkers did as they passed through the part of Botswana I was born in.
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Drummer Captain Carrot!  "Though I try to cheer my comrades and be gay." HEM be sillyMy reputation & other quotes That's right Hodge-podge of stuff Some funny things that caught my attention - Lao-Tzu
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"Tell me, is there anything worn under the kilt?" "No, lassie, it's all in good working order!"
Motivations Desiderata ~ By Max Ehrmann Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. - By Max Ehrmann The Thousanth Man ~ Rudyard Kipling 0NE man in a thousand, Solomon says. Will stick more close than a brother. And it's worth while seeking him half your days If you find him before the other. Nine hundred and ninety-nine depend On what the world sees in you, But the Thousandth Man will stand your friend With the whole round world agin you.
'Tis neither promise nor prayer nor show Will settle the finding for 'ee. Nine hundred and ninety-nine of 'em go By your looks, or your acts, or your glory.
But if he finds you and you find him, The rest of the world don't matter; For the Thousandth Man will sink or swim With you in any water.
You can use his purse with no more talk Than he uses yours for his spendings, And laugh and meet in your daily walk As though there had been no lendings.
Nine hundred and ninety-nine of 'em call For silver and gold in their dealings; But the Thousandth Man he's worth 'em all Because you can show him your feelings.
His wrong's your wrong, and his right's your right, In season or out of season. Stand up and back it in all men's sight With that for your only reason!
Nine hundred and ninety-nine can't bide The shame or mocking or laughter, But the Thousandth Man will stand by your side To the gallows-foot - and after!
"Get these Motherfucking Anumias out of my Motherfucking region!" - Noto, whilst operating heavy weaponry during the June 2016 Civil War
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Anumia
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Oct 2 2014, 04:24 PM
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Anumia Novo Spiritus
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- Shin
- Oct 2 2014, 04:19 PM
- Anumia
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This was a solid, informative article until it came around to the part where you called out LegendofPie. I understand why you feel as strongly as you do, but I feel like it should have been at the least a separate post or perhaps kept in his thread, while leaving your historical essay separate; the call-out at the end, to me, lessens the academic value of reading.
Still, history is history, and history is interesting.
I believe Rach's point entirely was to call someone out... after laying an academic foundation. I realise that was the purpose, but it read quite well as an academic treatise until it came to, "So yeah, screw you LegendofPie!"
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Signature The One. The Allfather.-- "He stood with his head held high, critics screaming, and did what he truly felt was best for Europeia." - Common-Sense Politics He's the only person in NationStates who can successfully combine outrageous pomposity with a real support for democracy. - Indycar Racing Do I really need to talk about Anumia? The guy can write like Shakespeare, think like Socrates, and I learned on EuroChat yesterday that he can sing too. I bet he's hung like a bull moose. - Common-Sense Politics Anumia, you have a great mind. - Lethen Someone like Anumia only comes around once in a while. - Kabanatuanistan To be perfectly honest, I'm just going to trust Anumia and approve - Falconias I saw your amendment and wondered whether I had died and gone to heaven. It's beautiful. - Swakistek This is why we should all listen to Anumia. Clearly he is a god amongst men. - Fortana | You are not all knowing. You are not all powerful. You are not Anumia. - Griff I have the greatest respect for Anumia - don't let this thread fool you - but I wish he'd stop winning. - Hyanygo Actually, Hy, the things I wanted to say were: Go Anumia! I love Anumia! - Lethen Anumia with whatever power I have I hereby declare you the winner of everything, forever. - Fortana Long live the Emperor! All Hail Anumia, King of Kings! - Peaceful Llamas How about we realize democracy here is flawed and we make Anumia our dictator? - karthikking I agree with you, Anumia, as all Europeians should. - Swakistek To be honest I'm just going to vote whatever way Anumia votes. - Fortana |
Awards I fought in the Osiris Campaign.
  Amusing Quotes - Quote:
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Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:36 AM): I need you Sai'on'ay the Light Elf (Shower) says (7:37 AM): For? Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:37 AM): an Anumia vs Anumia debate  Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:38 AM): Were doing a 4 part debating series with Europeia and Rougiers brought up doing a "Anumia vs Anumia" debate I want you to be our Anumia
- Klatonia,Jul 5 2011
- 04:03 AM
Drop dead, Dre.
- Lethen
- Aug 15 2013, 03:00 AM
You think I fact-check the shit I say? 
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Rach
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Oct 2 2014, 04:25 PM
Post #7
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At Least 5% Sugar
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The text which this article is based on is called "The Political Economy of Race and Class in South Africa" by Bernard Makhosezwe Magubane written in 1979. He was born in 1930, took his BA at the University of Natal, did his M.A. at Natal and the University of California and got his Ph.D. there.
The other one I'm reading which I didn't base this one on, since I'm starting to read it now is called "The Anti-Apartheid Reader" by David Mermelstein in 1987. He is or was at the time an associate professor of economics at Polytechnic University, New York. It's also very interesting. The first one quotes Marx a lot... and tends to frame things from a Marxist perspective, while the second one does not.
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♥ Love and Kindness are never wasted ♥ The 2011 President of the Year Queen of Balder Unofficial Navy Girl
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Rach
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Oct 2 2014, 04:26 PM
Post #8
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- Anumia
- Oct 2 2014, 04:18 PM
This was a solid, informative article until it came around to the part where you called out LegendofPie. I understand why you feel as strongly as you do, but I feel like it should have been at the least a separate post or perhaps kept in his thread, while leaving your historical essay separate; the call-out at the end, to me, lessens the academic value of reading.
Still, history is history, and history is interesting. Yeah, I'm sorry, I just got really upset 
Edit: I separated it.
Edited by Rach, Oct 2 2014, 04:31 PM.
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♥ Love and Kindness are never wasted ♥ The 2011 President of the Year Queen of Balder Unofficial Navy Girl
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Anumia
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Oct 2 2014, 04:32 PM
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Anumia Novo Spiritus
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Better.
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Signature The One. The Allfather.-- "He stood with his head held high, critics screaming, and did what he truly felt was best for Europeia." - Common-Sense Politics He's the only person in NationStates who can successfully combine outrageous pomposity with a real support for democracy. - Indycar Racing Do I really need to talk about Anumia? The guy can write like Shakespeare, think like Socrates, and I learned on EuroChat yesterday that he can sing too. I bet he's hung like a bull moose. - Common-Sense Politics Anumia, you have a great mind. - Lethen Someone like Anumia only comes around once in a while. - Kabanatuanistan To be perfectly honest, I'm just going to trust Anumia and approve - Falconias I saw your amendment and wondered whether I had died and gone to heaven. It's beautiful. - Swakistek This is why we should all listen to Anumia. Clearly he is a god amongst men. - Fortana | You are not all knowing. You are not all powerful. You are not Anumia. - Griff I have the greatest respect for Anumia - don't let this thread fool you - but I wish he'd stop winning. - Hyanygo Actually, Hy, the things I wanted to say were: Go Anumia! I love Anumia! - Lethen Anumia with whatever power I have I hereby declare you the winner of everything, forever. - Fortana Long live the Emperor! All Hail Anumia, King of Kings! - Peaceful Llamas How about we realize democracy here is flawed and we make Anumia our dictator? - karthikking I agree with you, Anumia, as all Europeians should. - Swakistek To be honest I'm just going to vote whatever way Anumia votes. - Fortana |
Awards I fought in the Osiris Campaign.
  Amusing Quotes - Quote:
-
Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:36 AM): I need you Sai'on'ay the Light Elf (Shower) says (7:37 AM): For? Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:37 AM): an Anumia vs Anumia debate  Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:38 AM): Were doing a 4 part debating series with Europeia and Rougiers brought up doing a "Anumia vs Anumia" debate I want you to be our Anumia
- Klatonia,Jul 5 2011
- 04:03 AM
Drop dead, Dre.
- Lethen
- Aug 15 2013, 03:00 AM
You think I fact-check the shit I say? 
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Cpt.Carrot
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Oct 2 2014, 04:43 PM
Post #10
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Boogy Woogy Bugle Boy of Company "B"
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- Rach
- Oct 2 2014, 04:25 PM
The text which this article is based on is called "The Political Economy of Race and Class in South Africa" by Bernard Makhosezwe Magubane written in 1979. He was born in 1930, took his BA at the University of Natal, did his M.A. at Natal and the University of California and got his Ph.D. there.
The other one I'm reading which I didn't base this one on, since I'm starting to read it now is called "The Anti-Apartheid Reader" by David Mermelstein in 1987. He is or was at the time an associate professor of economics at Polytechnic University, New York. It's also very interesting. The first one quotes Marx a lot... and tends to frame things from a Marxist perspective, while the second one does not. I've heard of him, never read anything by him though. I'll see if I can remember any of the worthwhile authors I did read. I've read through a lot of bullshit on this subject over the years, and there is an awful lot, especially because it gets so political.
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Drummer Captain Carrot!  "Though I try to cheer my comrades and be gay." HEM be sillyMy reputation & other quotes That's right Hodge-podge of stuff Some funny things that caught my attention - Lao-Tzu
-
It is only when you see a mosquito landing on your testicles that you come to realize that there can be value in solving problems without using violence
- Quote:
-
"Tell me, is there anything worn under the kilt?" "No, lassie, it's all in good working order!"
Motivations Desiderata ~ By Max Ehrmann Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. - By Max Ehrmann The Thousanth Man ~ Rudyard Kipling 0NE man in a thousand, Solomon says. Will stick more close than a brother. And it's worth while seeking him half your days If you find him before the other. Nine hundred and ninety-nine depend On what the world sees in you, But the Thousandth Man will stand your friend With the whole round world agin you.
'Tis neither promise nor prayer nor show Will settle the finding for 'ee. Nine hundred and ninety-nine of 'em go By your looks, or your acts, or your glory.
But if he finds you and you find him, The rest of the world don't matter; For the Thousandth Man will sink or swim With you in any water.
You can use his purse with no more talk Than he uses yours for his spendings, And laugh and meet in your daily walk As though there had been no lendings.
Nine hundred and ninety-nine of 'em call For silver and gold in their dealings; But the Thousandth Man he's worth 'em all Because you can show him your feelings.
His wrong's your wrong, and his right's your right, In season or out of season. Stand up and back it in all men's sight With that for your only reason!
Nine hundred and ninety-nine can't bide The shame or mocking or laughter, But the Thousandth Man will stand by your side To the gallows-foot - and after!
"Get these Motherfucking Anumias out of my Motherfucking region!" - Noto, whilst operating heavy weaponry during the June 2016 Civil War
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Rach
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Oct 2 2014, 04:45 PM
Post #11
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At Least 5% Sugar
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Yeah, that's always the risk. But what I really liked was that even though there was a lot of commentary there was also a lot of quotes from primary sources which I felt really legitimized it.
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♥ Love and Kindness are never wasted ♥ The 2011 President of the Year Queen of Balder Unofficial Navy Girl
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Notolecta
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Oct 2 2014, 04:59 PM
Post #12
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Notty
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I do have to wonder wether you think past wrongs can justify current ones? I never understood why people think its olay to opress people that use to opress you, or conduct violance against someone that did so to you previously. Its also a bit absurd to lump all of a people into something. Not to mention you are using a marxist source, which isnt always bad, but you shouldnt take it as a reliable source for anything the mentions economics because it is inherently bias and is an extreme. That's not to say this information is wrong or that what happened was okay.
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The RT. Hon. Notolecta ESE OR1 ESH ESS
Offices held in Europeia Former Senate Speaker Former Associate Justice(5x) Former Senator(5x) Former Minister of Communications Former Chairman of the citizens assembly(2x) Former Attorney General(2x) Former Chief Justice(2x) Former Minister of Interior Former Grand Admiral(2x) Former Mayor of the City Council
Offices held elsewhere Former Senator(exshaw) Former Trial Judge(Exshaw) Former Acting Prime Minister(Exshaw) Former Deputy Prime Minister(Exshaw) Former Minister of Culture(Exshaw) Former Director of Public Relations(Region Inc.) (3x)
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The best kind of diplomacy - CSP
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Let me make clear the position of the Europeian Republican Navy in this matter. Eat a bag of dicks.
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Rach
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Oct 2 2014, 05:43 PM
Post #13
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At Least 5% Sugar
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- Notolecta
- Oct 2 2014, 04:59 PM
I do have to wonder wether you think past wrongs can justify current ones? I never understood why people think its olay to opress people that use to opress you, or conduct violance against someone that did so to you previously. Its also a bit absurd to lump all of a people into something. Not to mention you are using a marxist source, which isnt always bad, but you shouldnt take it as a reliable source for anything the mentions economics because it is inherently bias and is an extreme. That's not to say this information is wrong or that what happened was okay. So are you suggesting that the ANC in Africa oppresses the Afrikaners and other white people in South Africa like the whites did against the Africans? I am also unsure how it is absurd to lump together a group of people who came to South Africa for an express purpose. This wasn't like a group of Dutch people went to South Africa and some decided to oppress natives while others decided to go do humanitarian work. The VoC went there and committed atrocities. They were then joined by other immigrants who continued these policies. Obviously, today and even during apartheid there were Afrikaners who did not commit atrocities nor supported it. To what degree did people not support apartheid, I do not know but I do believe that most Afrikaners did and all the major parties in South Africa supported the status quo.
I am a strong believer in truth and reconciliation. I have argued many times that the ANC is led by a very corrupt man who is an ineffectual leader. President Zuma is quite terrible and unfortunately, South Africa has not developed a strong political system. The opposition is too weak. Violence is not the answer, not against whites and not against blacks. If I object to Apartheid, the VoC, the Afrikaner Republics and the Union of South Africa why would I not object to similar creations? I mean, just look at what Zimbabwe does on a daily basis. It is horrifying.
In fairness to the source, I do not know if the writer was a marxist. However, he does quote marx and tends to state things in such similar frames to a Marxist. It is important to note that at the time that this was written, Marxism was on the rise in South Africa. Having said that, I based most of my article on the first hand accounts that were included in the text.
Finally, I do have to wonder what you think if what you take away from this is that I wish to justify current wrongs (could you please list) and that a Marxist source might not be the most reliable. That seems a little bit weird to me.
Edited by Rach, Oct 2 2014, 05:44 PM.
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♥ Love and Kindness are never wasted ♥ The 2011 President of the Year Queen of Balder Unofficial Navy Girl
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Notolecta
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Oct 2 2014, 05:55 PM
Post #14
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Notty
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- Rach
- Oct 2 2014, 05:43 PM
- Notolecta
- Oct 2 2014, 04:59 PM
I do have to wonder wether you think past wrongs can justify current ones? I never understood why people think its olay to opress people that use to opress you, or conduct violance against someone that did so to you previously. Its also a bit absurd to lump all of a people into something. Not to mention you are using a marxist source, which isnt always bad, but you shouldnt take it as a reliable source for anything the mentions economics because it is inherently bias and is an extreme. That's not to say this information is wrong or that what happened was okay.
So are you suggesting that the ANC in Africa oppresses the Afrikaners and other white people in South Africa like the whites did against the Africans? I am also unsure how it is absurd to lump together a group of people who came to South Africa for an express purpose. This wasn't like a group of Dutch people went to South Africa and some decided to oppress natives while others decided to go do humanitarian work. The VoC went there and committed atrocities. They were then joined by other immigrants who continued these policies. Obviously, today and even during apartheid there were Afrikaners who did not commit atrocities nor supported it. To what degree did people not support apartheid, I do not know but I do believe that most Afrikaners did and all the major parties in South Africa supported the status quo. I am a strong believer in truth and reconciliation. I have argued many times that the ANC is led by a very corrupt man who is an ineffectual leader. President Zuma is quite terrible and unfortunately, South Africa has not developed a strong political system. The opposition is too weak. Violence is not the answer, not against whites and not against blacks. If I object to Apartheid, the VoC, the Afrikaner Republics and the Union of South Africa why would I not object to similar creations? I mean, just look at what Zimbabwe does on a daily basis. It is horrifying. In fairness to the source, I do not know if the writer was a marxist. However, he does quote marx and tends to state things in such similar frames to a Marxist. It is important to note that at the time that this was written, Marxism was on the rise in South Africa. Having said that, I based most of my article on the first hand accounts that were included in the text. Finally, I do have to wonder what you think if what you take away from this is that I wish to justify current wrongs (could you please list) and that a Marxist source might not be the most reliable. That seems a little bit weird to me. I'm not saying what they do is exactly the same. I'm saying it's wrong. My whole comment was directed more at your "Letter to Legendofpie" more than anything, and that is where I got the idea that you feel this changes the present. You call it absurd that Afrikaaners could be a victim because of these horrible things of the past, which is not inherently true. And here's the thing you admit that there were some that didn't directly commit any of these actions, so you see how lumping them in the same group as the ones who did is inaccurate. Not to mention you went even further in your comments to saying that you are ashamed to be part dutch, which implies you are equating a few to the entire ethnic group.
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The RT. Hon. Notolecta ESE OR1 ESH ESS
Offices held in Europeia Former Senate Speaker Former Associate Justice(5x) Former Senator(5x) Former Minister of Communications Former Chairman of the citizens assembly(2x) Former Attorney General(2x) Former Chief Justice(2x) Former Minister of Interior Former Grand Admiral(2x) Former Mayor of the City Council
Offices held elsewhere Former Senator(exshaw) Former Trial Judge(Exshaw) Former Acting Prime Minister(Exshaw) Former Deputy Prime Minister(Exshaw) Former Minister of Culture(Exshaw) Former Director of Public Relations(Region Inc.) (3x)
Medals, ribbons, and other awards  - Order of Scholarship  - Order of Mercury  - Order of Service to Europeia  - Order of the Sapphire Star  - Order of Community First Class
The best kind of diplomacy - CSP
-
Let me make clear the position of the Europeian Republican Navy in this matter. Eat a bag of dicks.
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Rach
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Oct 2 2014, 06:10 PM
Post #15
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At Least 5% Sugar
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LegendofPie argues that they have always been trying to attain freedom and that they have this great long battle. He may not be implicitly wrong that Afrikaners are currently facing a level of persecution, but he argues it in such a way as to describe the Afrikaners as a minority group that has always struggled. To the best of my knowledge, they do not even struggle economically or if they do they do not to the degree that blacks do. You can argue against persecution and list examples of it, but you can't say after centuries of oppressive rule that you were always yearning for freedom and had a great dream.
Furthermore I think I can say I am ashamed to be Dutch. While I, or my grandparents have never engaged in this. This is a culture that I admire. My family came from the Netherlands. They were part of a nation that engaged in this behavior.
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♥ Love and Kindness are never wasted ♥ The 2011 President of the Year Queen of Balder Unofficial Navy Girl
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