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Welcome to Europeia!
So what the heck is Europeia anyways?

Can I join?

So, I came here representing another region? I do not want to become a citizen. Where should I go?

What offices are there for people to be elected into?

What is there for me to do in Europeia?

That answers most of my immediate questions. What if I have any more?


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A Taste of Skizz #15; TSP, or Part One of My Memoirs
Topic Started: Oct 10 2011, 07:17 PM (1,835 Views)
Anumia
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Wanted to answer your questions here:

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Anumia
Oct 10 2011, 07:09 PM
Even with your kinder suggestions though, none of them are particularly honourable, and even regardless of intent it was at the least causing a two-faced foreign affairs response here.

But that's a far cry from what's been said (or more often, implied) about Ollie by several people in recent days. He went against us on a reinforcement operation -- don't the 'fendas here do that routinely? (Yeah, it's a little different, but if we treat the one as normal, surely the latter is not gravely dishonorable.)


Yeah, but the 'fendas aren't sitting in high-level positions nor do we particularly trust their suggestions regarding foreign affairs. At the time, Oliver was well-regarded for his general foreign affairs advice, and as NES pointed out, was a Vice Admiral in our Navy, and he took it upon himself to run both sides of the matter. Then had the apparent gall to go talking in public about how he played us, making us look incompetent. This wasn't a matter of the defenders beating us in a raid. That's what they do. What Oliver did, as a Vice Admiral and someone with whom the region generally trusted on important matters (his counsel would be highly-sought by most other important people in the region at the time, and his words carried much weight), then betrayed that trust. Europeia doesn't trust defenders with military matters. At the time (I won't presume to speak for current), Europeia did trust Oliver with those matters.

There's a huge difference between fighting on the other side by -yourself- because you think it's the right side (indeed, if he had come out shortly afterward and come to us to say he had endorsed the other side, and explained his reasons, he would have in fact been rather honourable in doing so), and secretly siphoning people away through favours owed to support the side, all while he had the responsibility to uphold Europeian interests by virtue of his position and status here.

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If Ollie was running for office, this history would be fair game, but suggesting it renders him a dishonorable man whose opinions are unworthy of respect strikes me as paranoid and/or vengeful.


When the matter first came to light, we wanted to discuss it. Others suggested it was unfair to discuss the matter while he wasn't in Europeia to defend himself. So, when he came back, and was running for office, we tried. He basically brushed it off. Mostly just told us not to vote for him - 'cause let's face it, he was getting elected anyway.




Now, we have a situation where our newly-elected President wishes to step forward in a foreign affairs direction she feels is beneficial to our interests, and someone who as explained above seriously breached our trust (and let's not forget that mere hours after leaving Europeia in the breakoff with Earth, HEM, etc, Oliver already threw out an article into the NS forums no less claiming we were practically in chaos) wants to attack it outright at the same time he's stirring up straw man complaints (RE: PASD) and basically being a -considerably- overly-vocal opponent not only of the Administration that is barely a week old but also interlacing in comments about how there are various problems with Europeia etc etc whenever there is a thread topic about the Library...yeah, it's not flying with me.

Oliver is a man I have known for a long time, and numbered among the best friends I've made in NS, is someone I've worked with in all fields in many places, and respected to the highest degree, but the events from around that aforementioned split onwards, things changed from two friends and firm allies in most general matters (legal, political, military etc) to a massive breach of trust and ethics that I've seen. The events we've discussed may not bother you, and I'm not nearly as concerned with that as NES is (you certainly were the person who was in the position to be the -most- p**sed off with the above events, but if they don't bother you, it's fair enough), but they severely damaged my trust. As we know, that's something that's nearly impossible to resolve, and is absolutely impossible while the actions that caused it to occur remain actions he supports and sees no need to apologise for.

So, no. If he wants to leave here, that's fine. If he wants to do stuff in another region, that's fine. If he wants to (to a point) explain that he left/is leaving/is participating less because of problems here, I've done similar. ...but if we have people who are actually stepping up and trying to do things, and he wants to attack them and put them down, especially in a field (foreign affairs) where he has effectively betrayed us and evaporated his credibility by failing to be responsible in matters where it counted, I'll be calling him out.
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Henry
Oct 11 2011, 01:26 PM
So, when you present a choice to me like this, where I have to choose loyalty between my friends and Europeia; don't expect an answer favorable to what you want to hear. I will choose my friends.

Friendship means nothing. Not when your "friends" are more interested in promoting their own self-interests then your "friendship." The problem with Europeia is that we fail to see that, while we may all be friends playing a game, our "friends" play to win just as much as we do, and some of them are willing to throw "friends" under the bus in the name of winning. A convoluted, paranoid worldview, perhaps, but I have come to hold it.

I will have friends, but I will not allow them to cloud my judgment in-game.
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Henry
Oct 12 2011, 04:26 AM
When two or three people finally get in a mood where they can make a lot of difference in Europeia for the better, there's three times the amount of people being negative and hateful about it and the more fiercely you defend your stance, the more fiercely you get attacked.

You mean like when the fresh newly-elected President promotes extending the olive branch to TUF (the general principle of which you've espoused in a few other threads) is attacked for that idea and put down for trying to actually do something?

This is what I'm not understanding about you right now, Henry. It's like you're -completely- ignoring anything bad said on one side, even when it's being said against principles you're promoting, then attacking those who also support those principles, because they're suspicious/angry at the ones trying to argue against the side you're ignoring. It's getting really freaking frustrating, because I -always- stop to pay extra attention to the things you say, partially because I like you quite a bit, and partially because I had the displeasure of watching you get trodden upon repeatedly over the last couple of years here, so in an attempt to do you a small bit of justice, I'll focus extra hard on your posts.

...but now your posts are literally contradicting each other, repeatedly, in other threads. If you want to defend Oliver etc regardless of all else, fine, do that. That means dropping the arguments against overreactions, 'cause see the Question thread? - that was Ollie overreacting; dropping the arguments against stopping the negativity, 'cause see the first thread where Rachel was talking about TUF? - that was Ollie being negative, etc. I can understand even if I don't -completely- agree with your position on defending your friends above all else, but at least do that then. It's getting more and more frustrating to see your uplifting posts only to then see a wave crashing down upon anyone who calls out Oliver doing exactly what you're arguing against. He's not the devil. ...but he's doing wrong.
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NES, you keep pushing for the excommunication of Oliver and Earth and I will make sure you wind up more than just mentally bruised this time. I will make you look like the biggest incompetent pile of shit in the world.


Is that a threat? :P

lol, it is, isn't it. *chuckles. What ya gonna do big boy? :lol:

I'm not pushing for anyone's "excommunication". That's ludicrous, and I have no intention of going there. I'm not interested in that kind of petty revenge or being hateful. If other people want to act like that to me, they can, but I will not be lowering myself to that level.

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As it stands, though; My loyalty to my friends is absolute above all else unless I know that what they're doing is completely wrong and will hurt people. At that point, I do what I think is right, but they remain my friends. THAT is loyalty. That's more than being a friend that people want; it's being the friend that people need.


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So, when you present a choice to me like this, where I have to choose loyalty between my friends and Europeia; don't expect an answer favorable to what you want to hear. I will choose my friends.


Being a true and loyal friend isn't about unconditional agreement with them. If you are a true friend, you are honest with them and tell your friend what you think, including when you think they are wrong. You can be accepting of someone, and support them through difficult times, without having to agree they are right all of the time. As for this notion choosing one or the other, between Europeia and your "friends". Frankly this sounds more like membership of a tribal clan than true friendship.
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An another note, "A Taste of Skizz"? Seriously?
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Peaceful Llamas
Oct 11 2011, 05:31 PM
An another note, "A Taste of Skizz"? Seriously?

It took you 15 installments to comment on that? :P
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Henry


yeah, continue playing your little games of conquest and deceit. You know nothing of what you're talking about except what you've been spoon-fed and you continue to make assumptions which continue to drive a divide between Europeian citizens. Rather than face the obvious that The Library poses no threat to Europeia, you continue to insist that there is reason for concern. Go and check it out for yourself; you'll find that they they'll let you and have nothing to hide except what your paranoia believes them to hide. You can believe that they acted against the interests of Europeia, but the truth is that Europeia acted against its own interests when it decided to make such a big deal out of dual citizenship. How can you expect people to have direct loyalty to Europeia when they have dual citizenship? How can you expect anyone to remain loyal when you demand that they focus solely on a dying region; past its prime and desperately seeking ways to continue its existence? How can you expect people to stick around when there is so much bickering and negativity and no real problem solving? People are leaving and you're ignoring the problem choosing instead to blame the people leaving instead of the actual source.

This region could have been great and it was on the right path until recently and I don't know what happened but it disgusts me. I can take most of the abuse that's been piled on me since I came here; I keep coming back, anyway, but to sit here and continue this BS even after being called out on it and everything else is ridiculous. Keep refraining that one belief over and over again and it might come true; you might keep members rolling in for a while and you might be able to hide the ugly side of Europeia from them for a bit, but in the end you will come to regret shedding off what kept you from the brink of disaster.
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Henry
Oct 12 2011, 02:54 AM
yeah, continue playing your little games of conquest and deceit. You know nothing of what you're talking about except what you've been spoon-fed and you continue to make assumptions which continue to drive a divide between Europeian citizens. Rather than face the obvious that The Library poses no threat to Europeia, you continue to insist that there is reason for concern. Go and check it out for yourself; you'll find that they they'll let you and have nothing to hide except what your paranoia believes them to hide. You can believe that they acted against the interests of Europeia, but the truth is that Europeia acted against its own interests when it decided to make such a big deal out of dual citizenship. How can you expect people to have direct loyalty to Europeia when they have dual citizenship? How can you expect anyone to remain loyal when you demand that they focus solely on a dying region; past its prime and desperately seeking ways to continue its existence? How can you expect people to stick around when there is so much bickering and negativity and no real problem solving? People are leaving and you're ignoring the problem choosing instead to blame the people leaving instead of the actual source.

This region could have been great and it was on the right path until recently and I don't know what happened but it disgusts me. I can take most of the abuse that's been piled on me since I came here; I keep coming back, anyway, but to sit here and continue this BS even after being called out on it and everything else is ridiculous. Keep refraining that one belief over and over again and it might come true; you might keep members rolling in for a while and you might be able to hide the ugly side of Europeia from them for a bit, but in the end you will come to regret shedding off what kept you from the brink of disaster.

Really? I think it's good that all this is done now. This whole thing just didn't come from nowhere, this has been simmering a good while. I'd rather people vented now rather than people putting the axe aside to grind another day. The way forward is not to protect people from criticism and call it bullying. This is a politics game. Politics is not always happy fun times and it's about time some people realise this.
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The only one making a big issue on dual citizenship is you Henry.
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I'm a flawed person. People here have been kind enough to forgive me for my past mistakes, and so I try to return the favor, at least where it doesn't require me to grab my ankles, proverbially speaking. If others see that as folly or weakness, that's fine.

Ideally, we would all get along all the time, but we don't live in an ideal world. Practically, I wish we could handle our disagreements with more civility, but it's become obvious that some people are not just unwilling to change their behavior, but lack the basic self-awareness to understand they're part of the problem. Over time, this has cost us the talents of some top-notch people, and it will cost us more in the future. Someday, the region may decide that's an unacceptable cost, but we're not anywhere near that point today.

I'm not surprised by where this thread has gone. The tensions that were laid bare here have been popping out here and there all over the forum, to the detriment of the region. Now that everything is in the open, perhaps we can move forward.
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Anumia
Oct 11 2011, 02:14 PM
This is what I'm not understanding about you right now, Henry. It's like you're -completely- ignoring anything bad said on one side, even when it's being said against principles you're promoting, then attacking those who also support those principles, because they're suspicious/angry at the ones trying to argue against the side you're ignoring.

Well, he did say all humans are hypocrites. At least he's not being a hypocrite in that regard.
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Henry


For this type of thing to stop happening; for it to stop getting to this point where people vent; people need to communicate more. This whole scenario could have been avoided by people simply talking to other people and people involved to get a clearer idea of what was going on. Instead, people chose to act and react in the manners that they have and by many I get painted to be the bad guy for the way I react, at a point in time when communication is irrelevant outside of these threads. I get pounced on for saying things I think I should when for a whole week a bunch of people said things they shouldn't have said in regards to a situation that they failed to understand.

I'm a flawed person; I'll be the first to admit it. Am I always right? no. Many times over I am wrong and wrong again, but not nearly as often and not nearly as hugely wrong as people would believe. Little things here and there.

As for this, -gestures to everything-, the tensions that were laid bare in this thread have made matters worse. You now see the ugliness in peoples hearts a bit better here, don't you? Do you want to believe it's the same everywhere? It's not. There are communities where the ugliness seen in the past week does not exist and it makes me happier to be a part of those communities even though I'm drawn back continually to fight it here. Obviously, I've been losing the fight. I seem to be out-numbered and out-voiced, as usual. It's easy to be right when you have back-up. Not so much easy to be right when you stand by yourself or mostly by yourself. Not that it's about being right; it's about getting people to actually listen to what I say instead of blowing me off. To open their minds a little bit and see if what I'm saying is true.

I sound insane, don't I? Yet there are quite a few people who could vouch for my sanity. I'm right more times than people here care to admit due to the ego I came here with. So I attacked some people with the same ferocity they attacked others with. Maybe it will make them listen when I say things could have went better had they actually communicated as human beings instead of letting things fester and build up the way they did.
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