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A Taste of Skizz #15; TSP, or Part One of My Memoirs
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Topic Started: Oct 10 2011, 07:17 PM (1,836 Views)
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North East Somerset
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Oct 10 2011, 09:48 PM
Post #16
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Wheels within Wheels
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It was swept under the rug, it wasn't even discussed in the EAC itself at all before I rejoined, and it was only ever mentioned in a few passing comments upon my return to the EAC.
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The brief period when NES wasn't part of the EAC
And I was excluded for 2 weeks. When Skizzy reopened the EAC on May 26th he stated:
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I also left out NES, but will invite him back when the whole TSP thing is over.
I wasn't reinvited back in till June 7th and then I said:
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I'm back.
No idea why I was excluded due to TSP, surely I would have been an extremely useful asset for Strategy on that matter - experienced with dealing with Feeder Affairs from the position of a UCR, and well detached and unbiased.
Incidentally, the timing for my re-introduction now is far worse! But nevermind, get back to work, and lets make sure we make the right decisions for Europeia in the future.
By saying far worse, I meant I had a direct conflict of interest due to the then relevant TKR-TNI issue. Skizzy replied:
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Meh, I'm not too worried about the TNI/TKR thing. You guys will do what you guys will do. smile.gif
I think we were on the opposite side of the TSP thing from TNI and LKE, and I didn't want to put you in an awkward spot. As it turned out, there wasn't much discussion of it here, but when I changed the password after Earth/Ollie/Griff left, I thought we'd be discussing TSP here much more than we actually did.
I quoted his first paragraph and replied:
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Skizzy, I think TNI/LKE went through exactly the same motions as Europeia regarding TSP. As you'd expect for three regions whom are closely aligned, on a matter which they had little experience on and was distant to them.
So, I think you were worrying about a conflict of interest, which did not exist. The only conflicts of interest going on were between the then President and the then Supreme Chancellor. The less said about that, the better.
So there you have it, Henry. Then and there I told him then and there directly that TNI/LKE were on the same side, and he still didn't appear to take it in. His reply was:
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laugh.gif
Well played.
And that's the last that was said on the matter.
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Curriculum vitae ACCEL: Former Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Intelligence Director.
Albion: Earl Marshall of the Royal Albion Legion. Former Sheriff of Bowerstone and Administrator.
Asgard: Former Duke of Freyja and Administrator.
Balder: Crown Prince and Vice Delegate. Administrator. Former Delegate, Foreign Minister and Security Minister.
Empires of Earth: Former Defence Minister.
Europeia: Director of the Europeian Intelligence Agency. Administrator. Former President, Vice President, Vice Chancellor, Senator, Grand Admiral and Foreign Minister.
GB&I: King. Lord of Ireland. Lord High Admiral of the Fleet. Director of the Royal Intelligence Agency. Administrator. Former Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, MP and Commander.
Lazarus: Former Foreign Secretary and Emerald Councillor.
LKE: Lord High Steward. Director General of the Imperial Intelligence Agency. Earl. Administrator. Former Crown Prince, Foreign Minister, Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister.
Osiris: Former Scribe of Intelligence and Security, and Administrator.
SRATO: Former General Secretary.
The Kodiak Republic: Former Foreign Minister and MP.
TNI: Administrator and Executive Director of Intelligence. Former Crown Prince, Reich Elector, Deputy Reich Chancellor, Chief Justice, Foreign Minister, MP and Commander.
UIAF: Former Associate Commander. Character references "NES is hard." - Earth22, Pillar of Society.
"NES: A bastard in all his magnificence."- Julian Anumia, General pervert.
"NES touches me in ways no other man can." - Cerebella, Wise statesman.
"NES is a gaylord." - Michael the Great Man, Inactive Royalist Guy.
"NES, I love you in that platonic sort of way." - Heras Savaer, Top Banana in Unknown.
"NES is the kind of guy who puts out the cigar on your ass when he's finished." - Seymour, My Favourite Ashtray.
"Who needs a husband, when NES is your daddy." - Florence, My Model Daughter.
"NES makes it hard for me" - Rachel Anumia, Ms Hawt Stuff
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Skizzy Grey
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Oct 10 2011, 09:57 PM
Post #17
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Here's the part I don't get:
Earth was President here when the TSP affair began to unfold. Griff was her GA. If Earth asked Griff to take one side or the other in this matter, he would've done that. It wouldn't have raised eyebrows for us to side with Unknown, and against the FRA (though their participation might have been unforeseen). So if Earth wanted to help her friends in TRR, she could have told Griff to order the Navy to support the invasion.
Wouldn't that be easier, and more effective, then starting a fight with HEM and resigning from the region?
Remember, HEM briefly left the region too; the scene was quite ugly, and it involved people who didn't leave, and who had nothing to do with the TSP thing (e.g., Hyanygo). In sum, it didn't look at all like the sort of fight one might stage as a ruse to conceal a pre-planned exit.
And from NES's post, it appears I need to take remedial reading comprehension classes. :lol:
In hindsight, I think we should have stayed neutral. Making a half-assed attempt to intervene in a squabble that didn't concern us, without any allies on our side, was a bad move.
Of course, it's easy to say that now that HEM's back in the fold. If I had pulled out of TSP and HEM hadn't come back, people would be jumping to make a causal connection between those two things and hang me for it.
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Skizzy Grey
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Oct 10 2011, 09:59 PM
Post #18
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- North East Somerset
- Oct 10 2011, 04:48 PM
It was swept under the rug, it wasn't even discussed in the EAC itself at all before I rejoined, and it was only ever mentioned in a few passing comments upon my return to the EAC.
I think you're confusing "sweeping under the rug" with "not giving a s--t."
Maybe I shouldn't have been, but I was firmly in the latter camp.
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Sopo
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Oct 10 2011, 10:03 PM
Post #19
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Lord High Chancellor Emeritus
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It's easy to understand how the situation could have been mishandled in the midst of a much larger crisis, that of the region losing a President, Delegate, and GA all at once.
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 The Right Honorable Sopo Associate Administrator for Discord - High Priest of Nethel - Lord High Chancellor EmeritusMore Info I once was... Lord High Chancellor and Heir Apparent ~ 26th, 32nd, and 42nd President ~ Speaker of the 27th Senate Vice President ~ Minister of Radio ~ Attorney General ~ Minister of Foreign Affairs ~ Minister of Culture ~ Minister of Welfare ~ Chair of the Citizens' AssemblyClan  Clan Chastain Sopo (Chief), Netz, Marnip, WestGuam, Rand, GraVandius, and AramorAll Hail Nethel, Praise Be Unto Him  I am the High Priest Join the Movement Gaze Upon the Truth Offer Your Prayers
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North East Somerset
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Oct 10 2011, 10:06 PM
Post #20
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Wheels within Wheels
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So if Earth wanted to help her friends in TRR, she could have told Griff to order the Navy to support the invasion.
HEM was Foreign Minister in TSP. There is no way that the ERN could have been deployed against the TSP government in those circumstances. That is precisly why Oliver as I quoted earlier "advised Europeia to support Southern Bellz while I was quietly siphoning people who owed me favours into supporting Devonitians."
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And from NES's post, it appears I need to take remedial reading comprehension classes. laugh.gif
lol, indeed.
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Curriculum vitae ACCEL: Former Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Intelligence Director.
Albion: Earl Marshall of the Royal Albion Legion. Former Sheriff of Bowerstone and Administrator.
Asgard: Former Duke of Freyja and Administrator.
Balder: Crown Prince and Vice Delegate. Administrator. Former Delegate, Foreign Minister and Security Minister.
Empires of Earth: Former Defence Minister.
Europeia: Director of the Europeian Intelligence Agency. Administrator. Former President, Vice President, Vice Chancellor, Senator, Grand Admiral and Foreign Minister.
GB&I: King. Lord of Ireland. Lord High Admiral of the Fleet. Director of the Royal Intelligence Agency. Administrator. Former Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, MP and Commander.
Lazarus: Former Foreign Secretary and Emerald Councillor.
LKE: Lord High Steward. Director General of the Imperial Intelligence Agency. Earl. Administrator. Former Crown Prince, Foreign Minister, Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister.
Osiris: Former Scribe of Intelligence and Security, and Administrator.
SRATO: Former General Secretary.
The Kodiak Republic: Former Foreign Minister and MP.
TNI: Administrator and Executive Director of Intelligence. Former Crown Prince, Reich Elector, Deputy Reich Chancellor, Chief Justice, Foreign Minister, MP and Commander.
UIAF: Former Associate Commander. Character references "NES is hard." - Earth22, Pillar of Society.
"NES: A bastard in all his magnificence."- Julian Anumia, General pervert.
"NES touches me in ways no other man can." - Cerebella, Wise statesman.
"NES is a gaylord." - Michael the Great Man, Inactive Royalist Guy.
"NES, I love you in that platonic sort of way." - Heras Savaer, Top Banana in Unknown.
"NES is the kind of guy who puts out the cigar on your ass when he's finished." - Seymour, My Favourite Ashtray.
"Who needs a husband, when NES is your daddy." - Florence, My Model Daughter.
"NES makes it hard for me" - Rachel Anumia, Ms Hawt Stuff
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HEM
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Oct 10 2011, 11:19 PM
Post #21
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour
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I find it interesting that this event has suddenly gained so much attention.
I honestly had very little information on the event at the time...I certainly assumed we would be helping the native government, but doing so was hardly on my top priority list. Honestly, what was said by Oliver and others during the event was more bothersome to me than the event itself.
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Skizzy Grey
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Oct 10 2011, 11:42 PM
Post #22
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- North East Somerset
- Oct 10 2011, 05:06 PM
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So if Earth wanted to help her friends in TRR, she could have told Griff to order the Navy to support the invasion.
HEM was Foreign Minister in TSP. There is no way that the ERN could have been deployed against the TSP government in those circumstances. That is precisly why Oliver as I quoted earlier "advised Europeia to support Southern Bellz while I was quietly siphoning people who owed me favours into supporting Devonitians."
Or, Ollie needed to justify himself to his new friends in TRR. Or, this was a post on the NS forum and was purely spin, with any resemblance to the truth being coincidental. Or maybe Ollie went rogue. Or maybe, as you contend, it was an elaborate conspiracy. Neither of us knows, and we're both inclined to fill the gaps in our knowledge with assumptions that support our pre-existing worldview.
We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are.
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Anumia
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Oct 11 2011, 12:09 AM
Post #23
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Anumia Novo Spiritus
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Even with your kinder suggestions though, none of them are particularly honourable, and even regardless of intent it was at the least causing a two-faced foreign affairs response here.
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Signature The One. The Allfather.-- "He stood with his head held high, critics screaming, and did what he truly felt was best for Europeia." - Common-Sense Politics He's the only person in NationStates who can successfully combine outrageous pomposity with a real support for democracy. - Indycar Racing Do I really need to talk about Anumia? The guy can write like Shakespeare, think like Socrates, and I learned on EuroChat yesterday that he can sing too. I bet he's hung like a bull moose. - Common-Sense Politics Anumia, you have a great mind. - Lethen Someone like Anumia only comes around once in a while. - Kabanatuanistan To be perfectly honest, I'm just going to trust Anumia and approve - Falconias I saw your amendment and wondered whether I had died and gone to heaven. It's beautiful. - Swakistek This is why we should all listen to Anumia. Clearly he is a god amongst men. - Fortana | You are not all knowing. You are not all powerful. You are not Anumia. - Griff I have the greatest respect for Anumia - don't let this thread fool you - but I wish he'd stop winning. - Hyanygo Actually, Hy, the things I wanted to say were: Go Anumia! I love Anumia! - Lethen Anumia with whatever power I have I hereby declare you the winner of everything, forever. - Fortana Long live the Emperor! All Hail Anumia, King of Kings! - Peaceful Llamas How about we realize democracy here is flawed and we make Anumia our dictator? - karthikking I agree with you, Anumia, as all Europeians should. - Swakistek To be honest I'm just going to vote whatever way Anumia votes. - Fortana |
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Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:36 AM): I need you Sai'on'ay the Light Elf (Shower) says (7:37 AM): For? Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:37 AM): an Anumia vs Anumia debate  Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:38 AM): Were doing a 4 part debating series with Europeia and Rougiers brought up doing a "Anumia vs Anumia" debate I want you to be our Anumia
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Avakael
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Oct 11 2011, 01:34 AM
Post #24
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- Skizzy Grey
- Oct 11 2011, 08:10 AM
- Avakael
- Oct 10 2011, 03:46 PM
If Unknown was involved, I missed it. Sources?
I don't think this was secret, Dev. I'll bet Savaer or Elindra would confirm if asked.
This is not a source, and I can't find any record of actions in TSP within Unknown.
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Skizzy Grey
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Oct 11 2011, 02:48 AM
Post #25
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- Anumia
- Oct 10 2011, 07:09 PM
Even with your kinder suggestions though, none of them are particularly honourable, and even regardless of intent it was at the least causing a two-faced foreign affairs response here.
But that's a far cry from what's been said (or more often, implied) about Ollie by several people in recent days. He went against us on a reinforcement operation -- don't the 'fendas here do that routinely? (Yeah, it's a little different, but if we treat the one as normal, surely the latter is not gravely dishonorable.)
If Ollie was running for office, this history would be fair game, but suggesting it renders him a dishonorable man whose opinions are unworthy of respect strikes me as paranoid and/or vengeful.
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Henry
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Oct 11 2011, 08:02 AM
Post #26
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People need to work on their communication skills a little bit, eh? :lol:
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North East Somerset
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Oct 11 2011, 09:39 AM
Post #27
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Wheels within Wheels
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- Anumia
- Oct 10 2011, 07:09 PM
Even with your kinder suggestions though, none of them are particularly honourable, and even regardless of intent it was at the least causing a two-faced foreign affairs response here.
This.
And they are kinder suggestions indeed. I wonder how "kind" one must be to make apologies for someone to the extent of actually suggesting something they said themselves might not be true, because it is so bad...
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I think you're confusing "sweeping under the rug" with "not giving a s--t."
If you don't give a s--t about the ability of the Europeian Government to react decisively and united in the face of global NS events, then so be it. But I think that is a fairly fundamental principle in any respectable sovereign state. And I think there should have been an Inquiry into just how such a disasterous mess was caused by this incident. By disasterous, I mean key machinations of the region leaving in ignominy amongst chaotic actions. And I think that Inquiry would have found Earth and Oliver guilty of acting against Europeian interests and causing significant damage to the region's well-being. And the fact they have just gone off yet again and are acting in a way which whilst fortunately is apparently of very limited effect, is nonetheless decidely not in Europeia's interests, just compounds the issue.
There comes a time, as Sopo says, when you should no longer give the "benefit of the doubt". When you have to say, look, these people's actions are no longer excusable. You cannot take away their many contributions in the past, and indeed they should be remembered. But, you have to accept reality, and you have to realise that whatever love they once had for Euro is now obviously clouded by bitterness and negativity. Why? Perhaps we will never know. Perhaps they had unrealistic expectations. Perhaps something happenned that we don't know about. Perhaps they can't even explain it properly. Indeed I have yet to see a coherent argument put forwards as to what exactly this mystical "problem" Europeia has, why certain people are "dissatisfied", actually is. But it matters not, what matters is that we do not bury our heads in the sand, but instead look to the future of the region, and learn from our mistakes.
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He went against us on a reinforcement operation -- don't the 'fendas here do that routinely? (Yeah, it's a little different, but if we treat the one as normal, surely the latter is not gravely dishonorable.)
Are these Defenders Vice-Admiral in the Navy at the time? Of course not. It is different, it is completely incomparable. It is -blatently- dishonourable. End of story, Skizzy, time to stop the excuses.
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Curriculum vitae ACCEL: Former Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Intelligence Director.
Albion: Earl Marshall of the Royal Albion Legion. Former Sheriff of Bowerstone and Administrator.
Asgard: Former Duke of Freyja and Administrator.
Balder: Crown Prince and Vice Delegate. Administrator. Former Delegate, Foreign Minister and Security Minister.
Empires of Earth: Former Defence Minister.
Europeia: Director of the Europeian Intelligence Agency. Administrator. Former President, Vice President, Vice Chancellor, Senator, Grand Admiral and Foreign Minister.
GB&I: King. Lord of Ireland. Lord High Admiral of the Fleet. Director of the Royal Intelligence Agency. Administrator. Former Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, MP and Commander.
Lazarus: Former Foreign Secretary and Emerald Councillor.
LKE: Lord High Steward. Director General of the Imperial Intelligence Agency. Earl. Administrator. Former Crown Prince, Foreign Minister, Defence Minister and Deputy Prime Minister.
Osiris: Former Scribe of Intelligence and Security, and Administrator.
SRATO: Former General Secretary.
The Kodiak Republic: Former Foreign Minister and MP.
TNI: Administrator and Executive Director of Intelligence. Former Crown Prince, Reich Elector, Deputy Reich Chancellor, Chief Justice, Foreign Minister, MP and Commander.
UIAF: Former Associate Commander. Character references "NES is hard." - Earth22, Pillar of Society.
"NES: A bastard in all his magnificence."- Julian Anumia, General pervert.
"NES touches me in ways no other man can." - Cerebella, Wise statesman.
"NES is a gaylord." - Michael the Great Man, Inactive Royalist Guy.
"NES, I love you in that platonic sort of way." - Heras Savaer, Top Banana in Unknown.
"NES is the kind of guy who puts out the cigar on your ass when he's finished." - Seymour, My Favourite Ashtray.
"Who needs a husband, when NES is your daddy." - Florence, My Model Daughter.
"NES makes it hard for me" - Rachel Anumia, Ms Hawt Stuff
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Henry
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Oct 11 2011, 04:51 PM
Post #28
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NES, you keep pushing for the excommunication of Oliver and Earth and I will make sure you wind up more than just mentally bruised this time. I will make you look like the biggest incompetent pile of shit in the world.
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Anumia
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Oct 11 2011, 05:56 PM
Post #29
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Anumia Novo Spiritus
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- Henry
- Oct 12 2011, 02:51 AM
NES, you keep pushing for the excommunication of Oliver and Earth and I will make sure you wind up more than just mentally bruised this time. I will make you look like the biggest incompetent pile of shit in the world.
"Peace and forgiveness for all, except those actually serving in Europeia"?
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Signature The One. The Allfather.-- "He stood with his head held high, critics screaming, and did what he truly felt was best for Europeia." - Common-Sense Politics He's the only person in NationStates who can successfully combine outrageous pomposity with a real support for democracy. - Indycar Racing Do I really need to talk about Anumia? The guy can write like Shakespeare, think like Socrates, and I learned on EuroChat yesterday that he can sing too. I bet he's hung like a bull moose. - Common-Sense Politics Anumia, you have a great mind. - Lethen Someone like Anumia only comes around once in a while. - Kabanatuanistan To be perfectly honest, I'm just going to trust Anumia and approve - Falconias I saw your amendment and wondered whether I had died and gone to heaven. It's beautiful. - Swakistek This is why we should all listen to Anumia. Clearly he is a god amongst men. - Fortana | You are not all knowing. You are not all powerful. You are not Anumia. - Griff I have the greatest respect for Anumia - don't let this thread fool you - but I wish he'd stop winning. - Hyanygo Actually, Hy, the things I wanted to say were: Go Anumia! I love Anumia! - Lethen Anumia with whatever power I have I hereby declare you the winner of everything, forever. - Fortana Long live the Emperor! All Hail Anumia, King of Kings! - Peaceful Llamas How about we realize democracy here is flawed and we make Anumia our dictator? - karthikking I agree with you, Anumia, as all Europeians should. - Swakistek To be honest I'm just going to vote whatever way Anumia votes. - Fortana |
Awards I fought in the Osiris Campaign.
  Amusing Quotes - Quote:
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Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:36 AM): I need you Sai'on'ay the Light Elf (Shower) says (7:37 AM): For? Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:37 AM): an Anumia vs Anumia debate  Olde Delaware: AE, The Devil's Game, SPC, NS says (7:38 AM): Were doing a 4 part debating series with Europeia and Rougiers brought up doing a "Anumia vs Anumia" debate I want you to be our Anumia
- Klatonia,Jul 5 2011
- 04:03 AM
Drop dead, Dre.
- Lethen
- Aug 15 2013, 03:00 AM
You think I fact-check the shit I say? 
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Henry
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Oct 11 2011, 06:26 PM
Post #30
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Lol, do you really want me to keep pointing out how all humans are hypocrites? Especially you, Anumia.
Oliver and Earth are my friends and regardless of what they've done, they will continue to be so. I'm not that fond of NES, but if he actually had something worthwhile to say and a solution that didn't engineer more problems for us; I'd be more than willing to listen to it.
As it stands, though; My loyalty to my friends is absolute above all else unless I know that what they're doing is completely wrong and will hurt people. At that point, I do what I think is right, but they remain my friends. THAT is loyalty. That's more than being a friend that people want; it's being the friend that people need.
I probably know a little bit more about the TSP incident than has been mentioned here, but there has been a lot mentioned I didn't know about. None of it screams the necessity of getting rid of Oliver and Earth or anyone else.
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But, you have to accept reality, and you have to realise that whatever love they once had for Euro is now obviously clouded by bitterness and negativity. Why? Perhaps we will never know. Perhaps they had unrealistic expectations. Perhaps something happenned that we don't know about. Perhaps they can't even explain it properly. Indeed I have yet to see a coherent argument put forwards as to what exactly this mystical "problem" Europeia has, why certain people are "dissatisfied", actually is. But it matters not, what matters is that we do not bury our heads in the sand, but instead look to the future of the region, and learn from our mistakes.
Europeia never really gets better and its peoples attitudes that make it worse. When two or three people finally get in a mood where they can make a lot of difference in Europeia for the better, there's three times the amount of people being negative and hateful about it and the more fiercely you defend your stance, the more fiercely you get attacked. I've been made to think of myself as delusional and insane since I've been here. I've had my head screwed with and have been chewed up and spit out by some of the best argument-manipulators I have ever run across.
So, when you present a choice to me like this, where I have to choose loyalty between my friends and Europeia; don't expect an answer favorable to what you want to hear. I will choose my friends.
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