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So what the heck is Europeia anyways?

Can I join?

So, I came here representing another region? I do not want to become a citizen. Where should I go?

What offices are there for people to be elected into?

What is there for me to do in Europeia?

That answers most of my immediate questions. What if I have any more?


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Discord Is Hell; this is a hot take
Topic Started: Jan 3 2017, 04:41 AM (1,155 Views)
HEM
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour

Rand
Jan 3 2017, 03:31 PM
HEM
Jan 3 2017, 01:32 PM
I'm putting forth an opinion. The brilliant thing about a democracy is that we don't have to agree, as we clearly do not here.
HEM, I don't think NK said that either of you had to agree, only that she didn't. No need to be defensive.
I'm not being defensive, I am having a debate. It is possible to respond to people without exchanging pleasantries. I put forth a strong opinion because I was hoping we could have a frank exchange of ideas about Discord as a region, and I think we are — which is a good thing. No need to soften our words or balk at disagreement.
HEM
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Rach
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This might sound strange, but I agree with the notion that our forum culture has declined but I disagree that Discord is to blame. I think you and others tend over-emphasis it's use and to blame it for problems. It is really only a small minority of Europeians who use discord regularly and this community tends to differ from the main active people on the forums. When you talk about our political culture being more aloof than ever before, that could easily simply apply to the current generation and a culture that has developed over time.

An example of a more probable cause (out of many) would be the increased use of private forums for example. When I was running interior it was pretty open, but last I joined even the recruiting records were held in a private forum. This is definitely not good for reducing aloofness.
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Punchwood
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Ninja Kittens
Jan 3 2017, 07:08 AM
A lot of this article seems like so much "millennial" bitching to me, and more of it reads like complete bullshit.

Holy shit, you put my thoughts into words!

I don't get this region's hatred for Discord. It seems as if there is a problem, may it be a cultural one, activity issues, or even election results Discord is to blame. The exaggeration as way, you'd think that the forums were a ghostland and everything was done on Discord the way it is talked about. If you want to see a region where everything is done on Discord visit TSP. Everything is done on Discord there, whole Ministries in fact are now run in private Discord servers.

I love Discord. I can easily have a private conversation with someone, have a public one, join in a debate, have something in spam, suggest ideas, actually vocally talk to someone and all no matter where I am with ease.

Sure maybe some things should be kept on the forums such as Senate discussions, Cabinet discussions, Ministry planning etc. But really stop fucking moaning and bitching at change just for the sake of it.

Change is always happening, and most of the time it's a good thing. You can either embrace that change,help to control it and mange it in a way you like and seize the advantages of that change or you can complain about the changes and talk about how good the good old days were.
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HEM
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour

Punchwood
Jan 3 2017, 07:32 PM
Ninja Kittens
Jan 3 2017, 07:08 AM
A lot of this article seems like so much "millennial" bitching to me, and more of it reads like complete bullshit.

Holy shit, you put my thoughts into words!

I don't get this region's hatred for Discord. It seems as if there is a problem, may it be a cultural one, activity issues, or even election results Discord is to blame. The exaggeration as way, you'd think that the forums were a ghostland and everything was done on Discord the way it is talked about. If you want to see a region where everything is done on Discord visit TSP. Everything is done on Discord there, whole Ministries in fact are now run in private Discord servers.

I love Discord. I can easily have a private conversation with someone, have a public one, join in a debate, have something in spam, suggest ideas, actually vocally talk to someone and all no matter where I am with ease.

Sure maybe some things should be kept on the forums such as Senate discussions, Cabinet discussions, Ministry planning etc. But really stop fucking moaning and bitching at change just for the sake of it.

Change is always happening, and most of the time it's a good thing. You can either embrace that change,help to control it and mange it in a way you like and seize the advantages of that change or you can complain about the changes and talk about how good the good old days were.
My thesis is that things are worse because of Discord.

You can disagree with that opinion, but to tell people to "stop fucking moaning" about what they perceive as a problem seems a bit misguided.

I've seen more "moaning about moaning" than I have seen actual coherent arguments recently (there are notable exceptions).
HEM
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LeSageStupide
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Let me repeat what I said before on another thread: As hard as it is for some of us to imagine, I do in fact see Discord "replacing" much of the discussion we are used to seeing on the forum, just because such discussion can run so much more efficiently on Discord. In the long run, I really only see the forum being used for large announcements. The forum is the horse, and Discord is the car, I'm afraid. What we need now is just a better framework on how to run things there.
Edited by LeSageStupide, Jan 3 2017, 08:51 PM.
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GraVandius
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All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun and backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.
Edited by GraVandius, Jan 3 2017, 09:59 PM.

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Malashaan
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GraVandius
Jan 3 2017, 09:47 PM
All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun an backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.
I agree that some back room dealing is fine (in fact, it's a good part of the game). I think overall Discord provides some great benefits. That said, there are problems that arise if information gets lost, or relevant stakeholders are unaware of what is going on. I can think of several examples (both relating to skype and discord) where the region ran into problems because something was discussed and decided by a small group in private, and then when implemented, it was quickly rolled back when others spoke up with concerns; concerns they would have raised per-implementation if they had been aware of the discussion.

The forum provides a level of structure and permanence that Discord cannot. The challenge for us as a region is figuring out where the divide is between Discord-appropriate content and forum-appropriate content.
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I personally look forward to the Maltatorship in the Speakership..
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GraVandius
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Malashaan
Jan 3 2017, 09:53 PM
GraVandius
Jan 3 2017, 09:47 PM
All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun an backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.
I agree that some back room dealing is fine (in fact, it's a good part of the game). I think overall Discord provides some great benefits. That said, there are problems that arise if information gets lost, or relevant stakeholders are unaware of what is going on. I can think of several examples (both relating to skype and discord) where the region ran into problems because something was discussed and decided by a small group in private, and then when implemented, it was quickly rolled back when others spoke up with concerns; concerns they would have raised per-implementation if they had been aware of the discussion.

The forum provides a level of structure and permanence that Discord cannot. The challenge for us as a region is figuring out where the divide is between Discord-appropriate content and forum-appropriate content.
So we're in complete agreement? :P

Official Business should be on the forms. Everything else dosent matter.

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Mousebumples
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I think we need to do a much better job of sharing information between Discord servers and the forum. (And, yes, I include myself in that.) When we were on Skype, I tried to do that periodically, but on Discord, if I don't think of it right away, it's a pain in the ass to go back and find the transcript from a few days ago, especially if it's an active chat. Discord really needs to come up with a way to store logs on your computer - and, if that exists already, someone please clue me in.

While I know a lot of people don't care for IRC, that was one of the features there that I really appreciated - being able to search an log on my own computer when I wanted to re-remember something.
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Malashaan
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GraVandius
Jan 3 2017, 11:03 PM
Malashaan
Jan 3 2017, 09:53 PM
GraVandius
Jan 3 2017, 09:47 PM
All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun an backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.
I agree that some back room dealing is fine (in fact, it's a good part of the game). I think overall Discord provides some great benefits. That said, there are problems that arise if information gets lost, or relevant stakeholders are unaware of what is going on. I can think of several examples (both relating to skype and discord) where the region ran into problems because something was discussed and decided by a small group in private, and then when implemented, it was quickly rolled back when others spoke up with concerns; concerns they would have raised per-implementation if they had been aware of the discussion.

The forum provides a level of structure and permanence that Discord cannot. The challenge for us as a region is figuring out where the divide is between Discord-appropriate content and forum-appropriate content.
So we're in complete agreement? :P

Official Business should be on the forms. Everything else dosent matter.
I think so. A lot of the rest of my post was really replying to LeSage's comment that we could start doing almost everything on discord.
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I personally look forward to the Maltatorship in the Speakership..
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Skizzy Grey
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Ninja Kittens
Jan 3 2017, 07:08 AM
A lot of this article seems like so much "millennial" bitching to me, and more of it reads like complete bullshit.

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If you want to form social connections (which too often become political connections) you need to spend an inordinate amount of time shitposting in #EuroChat.

Blantantly false. I have plenty of social connections in Europeia, and I rarely post in Eurochat, and when I do it's 99% of the time to tell people to stop shitposting. I rarely posted in Eurochat when it was on skype either, which was the popular thing back when I first joined, because it was full of people shitposting and I saw no point.

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Politically, Discord has made governments more aloof and less organized.

Aside from "HEM had declared it so" do you have any proof of this, or is this just sentimental hogwash?

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the fabled Cabinet headquarters now sits mostly empty

Fabled? Really. Someone took his overdramatic pills this morning.

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Institutional memory has become more difficult,

possibly the only factual thing you say in this article.

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Culturally, Discord has furthered a culture of popularity and cliches over substance and debate. Why bother reading through the threads in the Oval Room if you can just vote for the people with the funny jokes?

is that why you think Skizzy lost? Because he didn't meme hard enough? Not very clued in then, are you? I've been mostly absent from this community for the last six months and even I could see that Skizzy didn't have the forum presence to justify him winning an election. Activity on discord had nothing to do with it.

Do you think XIV won his senate seat because he is full of jokes on discord? Because if you do then you don't know the kid. He barely knew what a meme was before he joined Europeia. Do you think Noto got in because he's a ball of laughs? I'm pretty sure that's an argument you'd never win.

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In terms of moderation, Discord is the wild west. Administrators attempt to do their best to enforce community standards, but there is a far-reaching perception that there is no way to create reasonable expectations without infringing on the Charter of Rights.

One or two senators believing this does not make it far reaching, and neither does is make it a catastrophic end of the world situation. Perspective is everything, and you seem to be viewing everything in the absolute worst light possible.

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Discord is sapping us of our regional identity and lasting power. Discord is creating a separation in Europeian society and culture. Discord is dark and dreary — the absence of light.

Discord is hell.
:rolleyes:

The "millennial" thing is silly -- nearly everyone here is a millennial. (I'm pretty sure Deepest House and I are the only active citizens here who were born before 1980. Perhaps a few of our youngest citizens are post-millennial.)

There are good reasons why most tech-savvy people use email, and also send and receive text messages -- the different mediums serve different purposes. Neither is intrinsically superior to the other. Discord and its various forerunners (MSN, Skype, IRC, et al.) are to texting what this forum is to email. Neither platform is intrinsically superior to the other, but each is more suited than the other to certain interactions.

If, in fact, the business of the region is increasingly being handled through text-like interactions on Discord, that's not a good thing. It shouldn't be necessary to explain why that's so -- no social club or business would conduct its affairs in this way. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for chat; it just means that longer-form, deliberative communication still has a place, and calls for a digital format better suited to its needs.

To be clear, this isn't a new issue -- years ago, some Presidents were criticized for running their administrations on MSN. I thought there was validity to those complaints back then; those Presidents were perceived as cliquey, and policy didn't seem to be as well thought out as it was when we had Presidents who seldom used off-site chat. I'm not sure history is repeating itself -- WL and his team seem thoughtful and inclusive -- but the concerns expressed by HEM and others are legitimate, and are not new.
Edited by Skizzy Grey, Jan 4 2017, 02:06 AM.
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Lethen
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I have voiced most of my concerns with Discord elsewhere (see the Grand Hall), but I'd like to highlight two things:

As HEM noted in this article, this was a "hot take" so of course it may come off as more opinionated and perhaps less-fleshed out than what we're used to. I still enjoyed the read. But let's dispense with the ad hominem attacks, and let's not tell someone to play nice without acknowledging those insults when they've just been insulted by those ad hominem attacks. It goes both ways.

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I don't get this region's hatred for Discord [...] If you want to see a region where everything is done on Discord visit TSP. Everything is done on Discord there, whole Ministries in fact are now run in private Discord servers.

Isn't this the biggest argument in favor of addressing how to wrangle the beast and figure out how to best utilize and integrate Discord going forward without our forums and our history, culture, etc. suffering because of it?
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Skizzy Grey
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If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:
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Rach
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Skizzy Grey
Jan 4 2017, 02:30 AM
If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:
Now I know the real reason HEM hates Discord :orly:
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HEM
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former substitute senator to aexnidaral seymour

Rach
Jan 4 2017, 02:35 AM
Skizzy Grey
Jan 4 2017, 02:30 AM
If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:
Now I know the real reason HEM hates Discord :orly:
Didn't you once run a satire piece attacking me for losing an election in TSP?
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