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| Comprehensive Counters List | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 17 2007, 05:33 PM (847 Views) | |
| Somebody | Aug 17 2007, 05:33 PM Post #1 |
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HI I AM A FUCKING NIGGER BITCH GUK
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this is basically the "Pokemon ideal for countering threats" thread, except with some more threats added and counters to some of the theats in that thread, along with a short blurb on how it goes about countering it. I mainly want people to screen this for grammar errors, factual errors, funny/repetitive wording, typos, maybe more pokemon to add as threats, and maybe more counters Electivire Cresselia: Takes almost nothing from any of Electivire’s attacks, and can easily stall it while killing it with either Ice Beam or Psychic. Mesprit: Doesn’t take too much from any of Electivire’s attacks, and can kill it with either Ice Beam or Psychic. Basically, like Cresselia. Uxie: Like Cresselia and Mesprit, Uxie doesn’t take too much from any of Electivire’s attacks and can kill it with Psychic. Swampert: Other than the occasional Hidden Power [Grass] Electivire, Swampert takes little damage from all of Electivire’s moves and OHKO’s it with Earthquake. Hippowdon: Despite being weak to Ice Punch, Hippowdon has the stability to take repeated Ice Punches while healing off the damage with Slack Off, and can then OHKO Electivire with Earthquake. Rhyperior: Much like Swampert, Rhyperior completely walls Electivire except the occasional Hidden Power [Grass] and can OHKO back with its Earthquake. Tangrowth: Much like Hippowdon, Tangrowth has the stability to take Ice Punches despite its weakness to ice, while killing it in two hits with Power Whip. Metagross: This will only work as a counter if Electivire doesn’t have Earthquake, which unfortunately for Metagross, it frequently does. Otherwise, Metagross won’t take too much from Electvire and can OHKO back it with Earthquake. Weezing: While falling prey to Thunderbolt variants of Electivire, Weezing does very well otherwise, being able to heal with Pain Split and kill Electivire with either Fire Blast or Sludge Bomb. Forretress: Much like Weezing, Forretress will do very well against all-physical Electivire’s but will fall to Thunderbolt if it has it. It can kill Electivire with Earthquake. Scizor: Works much like Forretress, except it takes more damage but has Roost to compensate. Kills Electivire with X-Scissor. Armaldo: Almost identical to Scizor, but it doesn’t have a recovery move other than Rest. Kills Electivire with X-Scissor. Dusknoir: With Rest and Sleep Talk, Dusknoir can outstall Electivire with any of its offensive moves, including Fire Punch, Shadow Punch, Shadow Sneak, Ice Punch, and Earthquake. Even without Rest and Sleep Talk (using Pain Split as a recovery move), Dusknoir can still beat Electivire with ease, especially since it also has Will-o-wisp to use here. Spiritomb: Works like Dusknoir, except that it’s more fragile. Has a rather nice advantage in a STAB Pursuit to hit it if it switches out. Can also kill it with Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, or Sucker Punch. Azelf Blissey: As long as you have Thunder Wave, this will work fine. You have plenty of time to paralyze it, and then you can Seismic Toss it to death. Cresselia: Like Blissey, this needs Thunder Wave to work. It works the same way, except you wear it down with Ice Beam instead, though you’ll need a little fully paralyzed luck. Even without it, a paralyzes Azelf is extremely easy to dispatch of. Heatran: Doesn’t take too much from anything from Azelf except Thunderbolt, but with a more defensive spread even that isn’t too much of a problem. Can also take heavy advantage of Flamethrower, activating Flash Fire. Kills Azelf with whatever fire move you choose to use, and with Choice Specs, you can actually OHKO it. Watch out for Hidden Power [Fighting] however, though if you are on wifi that is not much of a problem. Houndoom: Like Heatran, Houndoom doesn’t take much from any of Azelf’s attacks except Thunderbolt, and has Flash Fire as well. Also has the advantage of Pursuit to punish Azelf as it switches out. Can also use Dark Pulse to kill it. Weavile: While it is weak to Flamethrower, it is not OHKO’d by it unboosted, so it can switch in, outspeed, and OHKO it with Night Slash or Pursuit if it switches out. Keep in mind however, if it stays in for whatever reason, Pursuit will not OHKO with prior damage (it does 80-95%) and another Flamethrower will spell doom for Weavile. Also, watch out for Stealth Rock, since it cripples any chance of Weavile surviving Flamethrower. Empoleon: As long as Azelf doesn’t have Thunderbolt, Empoleon works well. After a Nasty Plot, Flamethrower will only 3HKO Empoleon with a more special defensive ev spread (which is also ideal for countering special Salamence) and Surf or Hydro Pump will both 2HKO Azelf. Watch out for Life Orb Azelf, however. Spiritomb: Can survive anything Azelf can throw at it even after a Nasty Plot and can almost OHKO back with Dark Pulse or Sucker Punch. Dark Pulse will require you to have Stealth Rock up or prior damage to Azelf, but Sucker Punch always going first when Azelf decides to attack makes it ideal. Also has Pursuit in case Azelf wants to switch out. Garchomp Cresselia: Having incredible stability, Earthquake immunity, Ice Beam, and being neutral to dragon moves makes Cresselia quite possible the best Garchomp counter there is. Being only 3HKO’d by Dragon Claw after a Swords Dance, as well as 2HKOing at worst with Ice Beam. Mesprit: Works just like Cresselia, except it has a much easier time OHKOing Garchomp consistently. However, it can get worn down quicker with its lower defenses and lack of better recovery. Gyarados: With Intimidate and a bulky ev spread, Gyarados can make a fine Garchomp counter. You can Dragon Dance after you switch in while it does whatever, and then OHKO with Ice Fang guaranteed. Slowbro: With great physical stability and Ice Beam, Slowbro can counter Garchomp with relative ease. It also has Slack Off to stay at good health. Porygon2: Having good hp and defense, along with a powerful Ice Beam and Recover, makes Porygon2 a good Garchomp counter. Even after a Swords Dance, Garchomp cannot OHKO with Earthquake, while Porygon2 will OHKO it with Ice Beam. Mamoswine: With Choice Band attached, you can OHKO it with Ice Shard, which has the nifty advantage of always going first. It can also take a few Earthquakes, but be wary of Choice Band Garchomp. Donphan: Much like Mamoswine, except it can take the hits better but it cannot OHKO with Ice Shard. Gliscor: Only with Ice Fang can it work, but it works well with it. Even after a Swords Dance, Garchomp can only 3HKO Gliscor (with Leftovers factored in) while Gliscor can 2HKO with Ice Fang. It also has Roost to heal on switches. Hippowdon: Hippowdon will activate Garchomp’s Sand Veil, which can make it a little risky as a counter. Otherwise, a Swords Dance Dragon Claw 3HKO’s, Ice Fang 2HKO’s, and it has Slack Off to heal, basically like Gliscor. Infernape Cresselia: Doesn’t take too much from anything from Infernape, although those with Nasty Plot can be troubling (and Swords Dance to a lesser extent, but the Flare Blitz recoil hurts alot). As long as you have either Thunder Wave or Psychic, those with stat boosters aren’t much trouble, and you don’t even need either to deal with those who don’t. Mesprit: Like Cresselia, except it pretty much needs either Thunder Wave or Psychic to work, since it doesn’t have any quick forms of healing. Starmie: Resists fire and fighting, and can outpace and OHKO with Surf. Watch out for a predicted Grass Knot on the switch, however. Gyarados: Also resists fire and fighting, and has intimidate to boot. Has some trouble with Swords Dance variants, however, due to Stone Edge and Thunderpunch. Also, watch out for the fact that Grass Knot has 120 base power against Gyarados, although it’s usually only a 3HKO at best. Slowbro: Again, it resists fire and fighting, and also has higher defenses that Starmie. However, it is also a lot slower than Infernape, so it can’t outspeed those with Grass Knot like Starmie can. Still works like a charm on physical variants, however. Hippowdon: While it pretty much loses to any variant with special moves (i.e., Grass Knot), it works great against physical variants, especially since it has Slack Off. Moltres: While physical variants kill it with Stone Edge or Thunderpunch to a lesser extent, Moltres does well against most other variants. Kills Infernape with Air Slash and also has Roost to heal, but it has to deal with the very annoying 50% it takes from Stealth Rock damage. Salamence: Like Gyarados, except it doesn’t have a 4x weakness to Thunderpunch and is hardly fazed by Grass Knot. Has to fear the occasional Hidden Power [Ice], but other than that Salamence works great. Can also make use of Roost. Starmie Blissey: Takes virtually nothing from all of Starmie’s attacks and can kill it with Seismic Toss. If it has Recover, you can use Thunder Wave and just hope for some fully paralyzed turns from Starmie. You can also use electric moves to beat it. Cresselia: Takes a bit more from Starmie than Blissey does, but it still works fine as a Starmie counter. If you have Charge Beam, then you can kill it pretty easily, and even without, you’ll usually outstall Starmie due to special defense downs from Psychic of freezes from Ice Beam. Ludicolo: Doesn’t take too much from any of Starmie’s attacks, and it can easily kill it with Grass Knot. It also can heal with Leech Seed and some stalling with Protect. Venusaur: You’ll need a lot of special defense to take Ice Beams from Life Orb variants (just switch to a good ice resist if its Choice Specs), and even then, it can be a bit skeatchy, but with Leftovers recovery factored in you can make the Ice Beam a 3HKO. After all the Life Orb damage, Grass Knot will OHKO Starmie, with minimal ev investment required. Has Leech Seed to heal with. Cradily: Mainly works with the Sandstorm boost as a Starmie counter, but even without it is still works fine. With Sandstorm out (and Cradily should usually be paired with Sandstorm), even Choice Specs Ice Beam only 4HKO’s with Leftovers factored in. Coupled with a 2HKO from Grass Knot or Energy Ball and Recover, Cradily makes a great Starmie counter. Celebi: Works exactly like Venusaur does, except it isn’t weak to the occasional Psychic and doesn’t need as much special defense to take Ice Beams. Also has Recover. Shaymin: Almost a Celebi clone in terms of countering Starmie, except Synthesis is messed over by Sandstorm but Shaymin also has Seed Flare, which will OHKO Starmie, Life Orb damage or not. Salamence Cresselia: Beats most varieties of Salamence. Mixed sets with Crunch are the biggest fear to Cresselia. Can OHKO it with Ice Beam or cripple it with Thunder Wave. Blissey: Easily beats Choice Specs Salamence (which is the most popular), and if you find out that you have switched in on a physical variant, you can still have time to Thunder Wave or Ice Beam it. Heatran: Being the only pokemon in the game to resist dragon and fire type moves, Heatran makes an ideal special Salamence counter. Watch out for Hydro Pump or Hidden Power [Ground], however, as well as checking if the Salamence is physical. You can kill it with Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power [Ice], or even Fire Blasts and such if you have Flash Fire activated. Empoleon: Resisting dragon while being neutral to Flamethrower and having nice special defense makes Empoleon a good special Salamence counter as well. Empoleon also has the advantage that it doesn’t fear Hydro Pump like Heatran does, and it won’t be immediately killed by Hidden Power [Ground], giving you time to switch to a ground resistance/immunity. Milotic: With a special defensive spread, Milotic can take Draco Meteors from special Salamence and shrug off the damage with Recover, while OHKOing it with Ice Beam. With a special defensive spread, it has some trouble against physical variants however. Mamoswine: This can switch in decently against physical Salamence, but special Salamence completely destroys it. However, it does have Ice Shard which make the hit you take switching in the only one you need to take. Still not exactly a great counter though. Weavile Rhyperior: Despite being weak to Weavile’s main attack, Ice Punch, with Solid Rock and Rhyperior’s amazing physical stability, it can still work fine. Can easily OHKO with Stone Edge or Megahorn, and sometimes even Earthquake (guaranteed if Choice Banded). Metagross: Can have some trouble taking repeated Night Slashes, but it takes Ice Punches like a pro and can OHKO with Meteor Mash. Heatran: Takes Ice Punch and Night Slash effortlessly, having a 4x resistance to both, but Brick Break can hurt a bit. Easily OHKOs with your fire move of choice. Forretress: Takes hardly anything from Weavile, resisting both Ice Punch and Night Slash, while its base 140 defense protects it quite well from Brick Break or even Focus Punch. Easily kills Weavile with Gyro Ball, although even Earthquake will beat it. Scizor: Works much like Forretress, except Focus Punch does quite a bit to Scizor, but it has plenty of opportunities to Roost so it isn’t too big of a deal. Kills it with either X-Scissor or Iron Head. Infernape: 3HKO’d by both Ice Punch and Night Slash, although Brick Break will 2HKO, and Focus Punch will OHKO. Kills it with Close Combat. Skarmory: Resists Night Slash, and has the physical stability to take everything else. Can heal off damage with Roost, and will kill it with Drill Peck or the occasional Steel Wing. Bronzong: Works like Metagross does, except it kills with Weavile with Gyro Ball as opposed to Meteor Mash. Will also get worn down a bit sooner by Night Slash. Steelix: Like Skarmory, Steelix has the physical stability to take everything with the exception of Focus Punch, which does at least 60% to it, and unlike Scizor it has no quick form of healing to heal it off. Kills Weavile with Gyro Ball. Hariyama: Only with Thick Fat. It resists Ice and Dark, while remaining neutral to Fighting, and very easily kills it with whatever fighting move you decide to use. Heracross Gliscor: Has amazing physical stability, resists both Megahorn and Close Combat, while remaining neutral to Stone Edge and the occasional Night Slash. Also has Roost to heal and can OHKO Heracross with Aerial Ace. The best Heracross counter you could hope for. Weezing: Much like Gliscor, Weezing has great physical stability, resistance to Megahorn and Close Combat, and neutrality to Stone Edge. However, it has to deal with a less reliable form of recovery in Pain Split, and will only 2HKO with whatever fire move you decide to use (if any). Still works good, however. Skarmory: While having the drawback of being 2HKO’d by Close Combat when Heracross is holding Choice Band, Skarmory still works well overall, since it takes anything from Choice Scarf Heracross and anything but Close Combat from those with Choice Band. And hey, that’s what your sturdy fighting resist is for! You can heal off the damage with Roost later. Dusknoir: Works well with Fire Punch alongside Rest and Sleep Talk, since you will need to heal quite a bit, and Pain Split can be rather unreliable at times. With a little bit of attack evs, you can usually 2HKO Heracross with Fire Punch while it will 3HKO you with Stone Edge (it’s usual best attack against Dusknoir, since Night Slash is uncommon) as long as you run at least 350 defense or so, which isn’t too hard to do when you can have up to 405. Crobat: Not the most reliable counter since one Stone Edge spells death to Crobat, it does have the advantage of having a 4x resistance to both of Heracross’ main STAB moves, Megahorn and Close Combat, along with Roost and a STAB Brave Bird to scare Heracross away. Don’t use this as your only Heracross counter, however. Salamence: Salamence is basically in the same boat as Crobat- Stone Edge spells doom, but it can take Megahorn and Close Combat with Intimidate. You can scare it away with Choice Specs Flamethrower (and even if you don’t have it, most do, so your opponent will generally assume you do and switch out). Again, don’t use this as your only Heracross counter. Gyarados: Only the bulky variants will work, since Gyarados needs to take as many hits as possible from Heracross, given that Waterfall won’t OHKO. And yet again, don’t use this as your only Heracross counter. Gyarados Cresselia: With Charge Beam, Cresselia can easily beat Gyarados, since Charge Beam will 3HKO generally (Stealth Rock can make it a 2HKO, however, as well as getting on the higher end of the damage spectrum), while Gyarados doesn’t do too much back. Mesprit: Works just like Cresselia, except that it has Thunderbolt instead of Charge Beam and a higher special attack to work with. The lack of quick recovery can be a pain, however. Uxie: Really, no different than Mesprit works at countering Gyarados. Gyarados: Only with Stone Edge. It resists Waterfall and Earthquake while being neutral to Ice Fang, and along with Intimidate and its nice HP, it works well as a counter to itself. The main problem with countering yourself, however, is that the opponent can be using Stone Edge as well. Try to have at least some other Gyarados protection if you decide to use this as your counter Starmie: Has decent stability and a typing that works fine against Gyarados, which combined with Thunderbolt and Recover make Starmie a good Gyarados counter. Dusknoir: With Thunderpunch, Dusknoir makes a good Gyarados counter. Thunderpunch will 2HKO while even after a Dragon Dance Waterfall will only 3HKO. Watch out for flinches, however. Weezing: Works like Dusknoir, except that you can use Thunder and sometimes OHKO, but the 70% accuracy can be risky (the paralysis chance is nice for incoming Salamence/Heatran and such), and you can always go the safe route with Thunderbolt. Uses Pain Split as a recovery move. Tangrowth: Works best against the bulky Gyarados’, since those will 4HKO with a Dragon Danced Ice Fang while the offensive ones will 3HKO. Still, Gyarados won’t usually start off with Dragon Dance anyways. Power Whip will easily 3HKO non-bulky Gyarados’, and it can sometimes 3HKO bulky ones as well. Porygon2: With Trace, you can trace Gyarados’ Intimidate as you switch in and lower its attack, while potentially OHKOing it with Thunderbolt. Either way, Porygon2 will end up beating Gyarados, although flinches can be very annoying. Gardevoir: With a physically bulky ev spread, this can actually be workable…using enough special to guarantee an OHKO on even the bulky Gyarados’ (341) with the rest in HP and defense gives you 340 HP/206 Defense, which after a Dragon Dance and a traced Intimidate (in short, no stat modifiers) will only do 46% with Waterfall if it is bulky, and max attack one’s will do 55% max, which with Leftovers can also be a 3HKO. Tyranitar Hippowdon: With a rock resistance, great physical stability, Slack Off, neutrality to Crunch, and a STAB Earthquake, Hippowdon makes a great Tyranitar counter. While Earthquake won’t OHKO, Tyranitar won’t do enough back to you to make this matter that much. Donphan: Like Hippowdon, except it doesn’t have the very useful Slack Off to help maintain its health. Machamp: Resists both rock and dark typed moves, and is also neutral to Earthquake, and can very easily OHKO with whatever fighting move you wanted to use. Also makes great use out of a Rest and Sleep Talk set due to Guts, which can help keep its HP high. Hariyama: Works exactly like Machamp does. Rhyperior: Despite its weakness to Earthquake, Solid Rock and Rhyperior’s amazing HP/defense makes it a very good Tyranitar counter. Neither Stone Edge or Crunch does very much either, while Earthquake will OHKO Tyranitar. Swampert: While Crunch has downgraded Swampert’s status as a Tyranitar counter, it can still work fine. With max HP and defense on Swampert, either after a Dragon Dance or with Choice Band attached, Crunch is a 3HKO, while Swampert’s Earthquake is a 2HKO. Since Choice Band Tyranitar is faster, this means that Swampert will lose, but it can still beat Dragon Dance Tyranitar perfectly fine. Hitmontop: With Intimidate, a decent defense stat, and rock/dark resists, Hitmontop makes a good Tyranitar counter. It can kill it with whatever fighting move you decide to use. Breloom: Also has rock/dark resists, and Breloom also resists ground. With an ev spread focused on defense, Breloom can make a great Tyranitar counter. You can OHKO with powerful fighting moves, although the fighting move of choice for many Breloom’s (Mach Punch) won’t OHKO, but with the speed priority it still works well. Lucario Cresselia: Mainly with Psychic, although Thunder Wave can be satisfactory. It can take hits from both ends Lucario’s attacking spectrum, although Dark moves such as Dark Pulse and Crunch will hurt. Has Moonlight to heal or the now more standard Rest and Sleep Talk. Dusknoir: Works a lot like Cresselia does, however the substantially lower HP means that it has a much harder time taking Dark moves. Will-o-wisp cripples physical variants, and Fire Punch helps a lot against special variants. Gyarados: Has Intimidate for physical variants (although Stone Edge will hurt), and takes on special variants well enough anyways, with base 100 Special Defense and the fact the Hidden Power [Electric] is rare on it. Can kill it with either Earthquake or Waterfall. Salamence: Like Gyarados, it has a Fighting resist and Intimidate coupled along, however its weakness to Dragon and Ice is troubling, since either Dragon Pulse or Hidden Power [Ice] are standard on special Lucario. Works a bit better against physical variants in this regard, and being able to outspeed +offense natured Lucario’s is a big bonus as well. Kills it with either Flamethrower or Earthquake. Hippowdon: While it is destroyed by special variants, Hippowdon works well against physical variants, with its absolutely amazing physical stability and STAB Earthquake to easily OHKO Lucario. Slack Off helps keep Hippowdon alive as well, a very nice bonus. Donphan: Like Hippowdon, Donphan can only take on physical variants, but it does so decently. It still has very nice physical stability, but the lack of a quick recovery move can be troubling. Weezing: And yet again, Weezing only works on physical variants, but it does so very well, with it’s awesome defense and Fighting resistance. It can either cripple it with a burn or just outright kill it with Fire Blast or Flamethrower. It can heal itself with Pain Split. Gliscor: … and not to sound repetitive, but yet again Gliscor only works on physical variants, but it does so amazingly, with base 125 Defense and a Fighting resist, coupled with Roost to heal off damage and can easily kill it with Earthquake. Heatran Porygon-Z yeah, I haven't bothered to do the last 2 yet, I'm tired of working on this for the night. |
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| Extra | Aug 17 2007, 06:11 PM Post #2 |
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hi sb
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forgot to add regigigas to gyra counters but because we just figured that out it's fine. 81-95% to bulky Gyrados with Thunderpunch, with Stealth Rock down it KOs, always OHKO to non bulky Gyra and takes 37-44% assuming max HP from Waterfall AFTER a Dragon Dance. btw slow start factored in |
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| ronnie | Aug 18 2007, 12:18 AM Post #3 |
cassius
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Should be crobat nice job so far |
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| For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. | Aug 30 2007, 02:46 AM Post #4 |
GROUNDER IN A COAT WITH A BURNING NOSE
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Add Bulky Gyara to the list of Gyarados counters somehow. |
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| Extra | Sep 10 2007, 08:41 PM Post #5 |
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hi sb
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hey HEY UPDATE |
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| ronnie | Sep 11 2007, 01:13 AM Post #6 |
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cassius
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Thick Fat Hariyama in tar and weavile counters. |
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| Somebody | Sep 11 2007, 05:40 AM Post #7 |
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HI I AM A FUCKING NIGGER BITCH GUK
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I'm going to update this over the weekend. ok I lied, I promise I will update this weekend however, since there are no upcoming exams (have one wednesday : ( )! |
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| jammy | Dec 9 2007, 12:11 PM Post #8 |
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no avvy
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The last two sentences of Swampert countering Tar sound funny |
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| Discord | Dec 9 2007, 01:11 PM Post #9 |
Still the Sith Lord of Hax
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yeah, pert cant beat dd lo tar especially, and dd LO Tar is the cool ttar. xD |
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| my iq is 154 and if u say it isnt well your stupid | Dec 9 2007, 08:29 PM Post #10 |
King of Sceptiles
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Gliscor works as a TTar counter for me why isn't it there? |
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| Keaton | Dec 22 2007, 10:04 PM Post #11 |
HI I AM A FUCKING NIGGER BITCH GUK
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I think there needed to be a discussion about countering Cresselia since she isnt quite like all the other walls out-there... |
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| Reno | Dec 22 2007, 11:00 PM Post #12 |
You got fucked by a labrador.
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weavile can come in on restalker and not fear much damage. and beat it shitless with pursuit or night slash. houndoom as well i might add. |
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| For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. | Dec 22 2007, 11:09 PM Post #13 |
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GROUNDER IN A COAT WITH A BURNING NOSE
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Tyranitar. |
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| Reno | Dec 22 2007, 11:11 PM Post #14 |
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You got fucked by a labrador.
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dark types in general that arent weak to eletric or ice. |
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| my iq is 154 and if u say it isnt well your stupid | Dec 23 2007, 12:32 AM Post #15 |
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King of Sceptiles
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SpecsLuke with Dark Pulse will beat ResTalk versions as they can't heal often enough to stop the 3HKO |
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