Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Bill Still's Monetary Reforum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Fake Quotes in Monetary Reform
Topic Started: Jan 21 2011, 12:07 PM (13,801 Views)
Bill Still
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
This topic of monetary reform has been liberally salted down through the years with a substantial number of fake quotes from famous personalities. The problem is these errors are repeated time and time again throughout the years as one author quotes another. I have fallen victim to this, as have hundreds of other authors. There is only so much research one can do to validate these things. Now, with the advent of the Internet, things are easier, but still it is no small task.

Since I’ve been writing in this field for a number of years, I have been the recipient of many dissertations pointing my fake quotes in my work. Unfortunately, these errors offer an easy target to critics who want to attack and discredit the entire monetary reform thesis.

I have gone to great time and expense editing up revisions to “The Secret of Oz” in an attempt to weed out these fake quotes. Hopefully this web location will serve as a clearinghouse for authors into the future. If you would like to add to the “Fake Quotes” debate, make your submissions here.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bill Still
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]

Thomas Jefferson

I have used all three of these so-called Jefferson quotes in the past:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...

"The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

According to Monticello, Jefferson’s home:

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/p...banks-quotation

Earliest known appearance in print: 1937[1][2]
Other attributions: None known.
Status: This quotation is at least partly spurious; see comments below.
Comments: This quotation is often cited as being in an 1802 letter to Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin, and/or "later published in The Debate Over the Recharter of the Bank Bill (1809)."

The first part of the quotation ("If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered") has not been found anywhere in Thomas Jefferson's writings, to Albert Gallatin or otherwise. It is identified in Respectfully Quoted as spurious, and the editor further points out that the words "inflation" and "deflation" are not documented until after Jefferson's lifetime.[3]

The second part of the quotation ("I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...") may well be a paraphrase of a statement Jefferson made in a letter to John Taylor in 1816. He wrote, "And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."[4]

The third part of this quotation ("The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs") may be a misquotation of Jefferson's comment to John Wayles Eppes, "Bank-paper must be suppressed, and the circulating medium must be restored to the nation to whom it belongs." [5]

Lastly, we have not found a record of any publication called The Debate Over the Recharter of the Bank Bill. There was certainly debate over the recharter of the National Bank leading up to its expiration in 1811, but a search of Congressional documents of that period yields none of the verbiage discussed above.
See this article's Discussion page for further insight into the formation and use of the latter portion of this quotation.

Footnotes
1. United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, General Farm Legislation: Hearings Before a Subcommittee of the Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, United States Senate, Seventy-fifth Congress, Second Session, Pursuant to S. Res. 158, a Resolution to Provide for an Investigation of Agricultural Commodity Prices, of an Ever-normal Granary... (Washington, D.C.: GPO, 1937), 3607.

2. To establish the earliest appearance of this phrase in print, the following sources were searched for the phrase, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency": Google Books, Google Scholar, Amazon.com, Internet Archive, America's Historical Newspapers, American Broadsides and Ephemera Series I, Early American Imprints Series I and II, Early English Books Online, Eighteenth Century Collections Online, 19th Century U.S. Newspapers, American Periodicals Series Online, JSTOR.

3. Suzy Platt, ed., Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations Requested from the Congressional Research Service (Washington D.C.: Library of Congress, 1989; Bartleby.com, 2003), http://www.bartleby.com/73/1204.html.

4. Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, Monticello, 28 May 1816. Ford 11:533.

5. Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, Monticello, 24 June 1813. Ford 11:303.


Ben Franklin

"In the Colonies, we issue our own paper money. It is called Colonial Scrip. We issue it to pay the government's approved expenses and charities. We make sure it is issued in proper proportions to make the goods pass easily from the producers to the consumers. . . . In this manner, creating ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power and we have no interest to pay to no one.
I have previously attributed this quote to The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin."

These words do not appear in Franklin's Autobiography or any other work of his.

Abraham Lincoln

"The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers..... The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity. By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest, discounts and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprises, the maintenance of stable government and ordered progress, and the conduct of the Treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own government. Money will cease to be the master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power."

These are not Lincoln's own words, but just Gerry McGeer's interpretation of Lincoln's policy.

The Times of London

Oh how I hated to give this quote up:

"If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe."

Attributed to an editorial in the Times of London in 1865. No such editorial ever appeared. The earliest known appearance is in The Flaming Sword, Vol. XII, No. 42 (2 September 1898), p. 7

Rothschild Related Quotes

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws!"

Attributed to Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744 - 1812). No primary source for this is known and the earliest attribution to him known is 1935 (Money Creators, Gertrude M. Coogan). Before that, "Let us control the money of a nation, and we care not who makes its laws" was said to be a "maxim" of the House of Rothschilds, or, even more vaguely, of the "money lenders of the Old World".

And then there is this one:

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantages...will bear its burden without complaint, and perhaps without suspecting that the system is inimical to their best interests."

Attributed to Senator John Sherman in a letter supposedly sent from the Rothschild Brothers of London to New York bankers Ikleheimer, Morton, and Vandergould, June 25, 1863. The letters are forgeries that could not have been written before 1876. Further, no evidence of a firm with the name "Ikleheimer, Morton, and Vandergould" has been found.

Bismarck

"The division of the United States into federations of equal force was decided long before the Civil War by the high financial powers of Europe. These bankers were afraid that the US, if they remained as one block, and as one nation, would attain economic and financial independence, which would upset their financial domination over the world."

This quote is listed as “unsourced” by Wikiquote. And then the other quote I have used from Bismarck is much more difficult to research, but I have cut it anyway because of its dubious anti-Semitic source:

"The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man in the United States great enough to wear his boots. And Israel went anew to garner the riches of the world. I fear that Jewish banks with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of America and will use it to systematically corrupt modern civilization."

The source of this quote only goes back to 1826, The Secret World Government Or “The Hidden Hand”. This was written by the anti-Semitic author Count Cherep-Spirdovich. He got it from someone named Conrad Siem. G. Edward Griffen also uses this quote. According to both Gary North and Griffin, Siem was a German native who became an American citizen and wrote about the life and views of Bismarck. North even claims that Siem’s source was a personal letter from Bismark to Siem, who North says was only 15 at the time. North bases this claim on a 1930 census record saying that a “Conrad Siem” was living in Washington, D.C. at that time who was born about 1861. North, however does not divulge how he determined that this was the Conrad Siem in question.

As you can see, this all gets very murky very quickly. Unless further documentation is offered, I will not use this quote again.

The Earnest Seyd Controversy

For over a century, a story has circulated that a London based banker named Ernest Seyd bribed key members of Congress in 1873 to get them to vote for a gold-only money system, known as “The Crime of ‘73”:

"In 1872, a British banker named Ernest Seyd was given £100,000 (about $5,000,000 in today’s money) by the Bank of England and sent to America to bribe the necessary Congressmen to get silver demonetized to further reduce the money supply."

The above quote was from the original cut of my award winning 2010 documentary, “The Secret of Oz” and it is also part of my 1995 documentary “The MoneyMasters”. However, could this entire Ernest Seyd bribery allegation be a hoax? Let’s investigate.

According to Wikiquote:
"In 1892 … Frederick A. Luckenbach gave a sworn affidavit that, when Luckenbach had dined with Seyd in 1874, Seyd had told him just that story. At the time, Luckenbach was selling mining equipment to silver miners in Colorado. The president of the State Silver League persuaded him to give the affidavit about what Seyd allegedly told him."

However, Seyd, as it turned out, had been one of the foremost advocates of silver in England, and an expert on bimetallism. Seyd advocated for silver in all his works and had been consulted on the coinage bill because he had written a 250-page book, Suggestions in Reference to the Metallic Currency of the United States. Here is Friedman’s opinion:

"Seyd was anything but a “designing bullionist.” He was a British bimetallist who objected strongly to the demonetization of silver by the United States. "

Congressmen soon distanced themselves from the story and even issued formal apologies for their allegations. Writers pointed out numerous problems with Luckenbach's affidavit and with the story of the bribery. Perhaps the most glaring question was stated this way, by Hermon Wilson Craven:

"The bill dropping the silver dollar from our list of coins had passed the senate on January 10, 1871, by a vote of 36 to 14. It had passed the house on May 27, 1872, by a vote of 110 to 13. In the name of common sense, what need was there for English and German bankers to send Seyd here in the winter of 1872-3, to bribe congress to favor a measure that had already passed both houses of congress without a word of opposition from a single member?"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
nickn
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Thanks very much for posting these corrections. I'm working on a youtube series on monetary reform and had been planning on using some of these.

One possibly fake quote that I haven't been able to verify either way is "I Killed The Bank" on Andrew Jackson's tomb. It's hard to see in the pictures what is actually on the stone:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...howCemPhotos=Y&

However it seems in most pages on it they say that that quote does not appear on the stone.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Casar1973
Member Avatar
Robert Dolen
[ *  *  * ]
"If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become indurated down to a fixture....."

I have seen this quote referenced to a publication known as "Hazard Circular", issued by the secretary of the London Banking Association, with the particular article attributed to a Lord Goschen. I have obviously not seen the original hard copy...

But here is this particular quote exactly cited as that of a "famous hazard circular", Daily Signal, Jan 14, 1899

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YYxZA...-circular&hl=en

The article is called "Greenbacks or Government Money".
Give me control over the self definitions, and I care not who writes the laws.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Casar1973
Member Avatar
Robert Dolen
[ *  *  * ]
The "famous adress" of Franklin on the "colonial scrip" is present in this article from Sunday Morning Star, Jan 29, 1939 cited source: Hon. Congressman Charles G. Binderup, Nebraska:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3OsmA...ial-scrip&hl=en

Article: "Quotes Franklin on Use Of Scrip"

The citation was also part of radio adresses by Binderup, but I have yet to see any reference from Binderup himself, as to where those lines actually were taken by him.

Parts of Franklins quote (and many others that we have seen) are also assembled in this document (last pages):

Robert Owen, Senate Document 23, "National Economic and Banking System of the United States", January 24, 1939, 76th Congress, First session, v3 - Franklin's quotes given on pp 98-9

Available here: http://www.archive.org/details/NationalEco...TheUnitedStates

But that document of the 76th congress does not give any further references as to where all those statements actually were lifted from, although the document as such is in the order of a testimony. It is an interesting document nevertheless.

Perhaps Owen has a note left from his research;
http://lccn.loc.gov/mm78035311
Give me control over the self definitions, and I care not who writes the laws.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bill Still
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Yes, thanks for mentioning the Jackson quote. This is particularly embarrassing to me, because I've used it so much. When filming The MoneyMasters we finished up late in the evening at the Hermitage. All I had to do was to walk 100 yards with a flashlight to have found out that this quote is entirely bogus.

The Times of London quote is clearly bogus. Read my original post for this one.

The Franklin quotes are too shaky, though I'd not seen this citation from "The Sunday Morning Star" before.

As you can see, we can go on forever on this. My list is not made to be all inclusive, just a warning shot to beware.

So now the question is how do we properly catalogue these. I'm not into doing a doctoral dissertation on this.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Casar1973
Member Avatar
Robert Dolen
[ *  *  * ]
It´s your call, your forum. I´d like to point out though that for example that there is stated above "Attributed to Senator John Sherman in a letter.... Further, no evidence of a firm with the name "Ikleheimer, Morton, and Vandergould" has been found."

In Washington State Archive of Manuscripts they have the following;

Cage 4194
AUTHOR: Ikleheimer, Morton and Vandergould.
ALTERNATE AUTHORS: Rothschild Brothers.
TITLE: VINDICATION : TYPESCRIPT, [1935?].
DESCRIPT.: 2 leaves.
SUBJECTS: Banks and banking -- United States -- History.
Ikleheimer, Morton and Vandergould -- Records and correspondence.
National banks (United States).
Rothschild Brothers -- Records and correspondence.
NOTES: Typed copies of correspondence between Rothschild Brothers, London, and Ikleheimer, Morton & Vandergould, New York, 1863, regarding establishing a National Bank in the City of New York, with comment.

http://www.wsulibs.wsu.edu/masc/cages.html

I certainly do not take these disqualifications too seriously, there are lots of potential explanations for either scenario.

The reference to Times Of London may bogus, misquoted or a case of revisionism. I certainly lean towards the credentials attributed to "Hazzard Circular" until it is disproven scientfically.
Give me control over the self definitions, and I care not who writes the laws.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
david
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Not a direct monetary reform quote but it nevertheless appears in related poltical discourse:

Quote:
 
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini


It's one that is frequently brought up across the (fake) political spectrum. The quote is known to be bogus but that hasn't prevented its widespread use, including into today. It is the result of people confusing the nationalist ideology of Corporativism (National Syndicalism) with contemporary business corporations.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Benito_Mussolini
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Casar1973
Member Avatar
Robert Dolen
[ *  *  * ]
I thought the Seyd case was quite intriguing, when the story hit the news, AP wouldn´t pick it up, but reached a lot of magazines anyway by mass mailing.:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn8...rds=Ernest+Seyd

Although the Crime Of 73 did remove the silver issues, that situation only lasted for some five years until they passed the Bland–Allison Act which created a requisite for the US government to purchase silver worth two to four billion dollars per month, with the ratio placed at sixteen to one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bland%E2%80%93Allison_Act

When countries depart from the silver standard (or bimetallic standard) there will of course be an increased supply of silver available on the market, coupled with the fact that as more silver was being found, the world silver-to-gold supply-demand ratio was rising. From the point of view of the later passed Bland Allison Act it looks like the U.S. Government was being hurt economically to the benefit of “silver interests”.

Those who didn’t switch to gold before the first change were left with devalued money. It should be pretty safe to assume that the top bankers in New York and elsewhere, many who were business associates with the banks in England, knew that the policy changes were coming in advance, and switched at the right time. As they always do.
Give me control over the self definitions, and I care not who writes the laws.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DebtBasedCurrency
Member
[ *  * ]
Thanks for this, We REALLY need to be carefull with the facts, not just embracing a quote because it backs our ideas... That said anyone know anything about this?

"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."

--Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank...1939

Like the other quotes, it makes sense and bolsters our argument, but is it authentic?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DebtBasedCurrency
Member
[ *  * ]
I also would like to know if anyone is familiar with "The Coming Battle, a true history of our National Debt" By M. W. WALBERT, written in 1899.... I have this book and it is available online here:

http://www.mega.nu/ampp/comingbattle/cbtabcon.htm

It is chocked full of quotes, including similiar to ones mentioned by Bill.

Who was M.W. Walbert?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DebtBasedCurrency
Member
[ *  * ]
One more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nationa..._vs_Jerome_Daly

The above case dismissed a foreclosure, because the bank did not have consideration, i.e. - since the loan was created out of nothing, (fractional reserve banking), he did not owe any thing to the bank. The Justice of the peace involved, Martin Mahoney died less than a year later(of course!)....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Mahoney

I do not trust any thing any more it seems war is peace, lies are truth!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Comnenus
Member
[ *  * ]
DebtBasedCurrency
Jan 27 2011, 11:49 PM
Thanks for this, We REALLY need to be carefull with the facts, not just embracing a quote because it backs our ideas... That said anyone know anything about this?

"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."

--Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank...1939

Like the other quotes, it makes sense and bolsters our argument, but is it authentic?

It is authentic. That quote was in the foreword to a book by Irving Fisher, entitled 100% Money.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Casar1973
Member Avatar
Robert Dolen
[ *  *  * ]
DebtBasedCurrency
Jan 27 2011, 11:56 PM
Who was M.W. Walbert?

He seems to have been a Judge;

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22...1909&lnav=hist0
Give me control over the self definitions, and I care not who writes the laws.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bill Still
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Sorry to be AWOL. Traveling, filming. The Hemphill quote is genuine.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Bill's money reforum · Next Topic »
Add Reply