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| ROH Respect Is Earned Review; Warning: BJ Whitmer discussion inside | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 3 2007, 01:35 AM (803 Views) | |
| nascarsucks | Jul 3 2007, 01:35 AM Post #1 |
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NOT A FAN OF NASCAR
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Ay, so being the biggest ROH dick-rider on this board, I decided I've give my thoughts on Respect Is Earned. Takeshima Moreshima vs. BJ Whitmer A pretty standard squash. Whitmer does a good job of putting Moreshima over as a monster while making himself look like a useless wanker, which, compared to the rest of the ROH roster, he is. Moreshima won in about 3 minutes. 1/2* Naomichi Marufuji vs. Rocky Romero A match that looked straight out of late 90's AJPW. Marufuji begins chopping Romero so stiffly you wonder how many welts Romero is going to have on his chest before the match ends. Subtletly, Romero begins attacking Marufuji just as stiffly, if not more so. An excellent blend of technical wrestling and storytelling, but missing that little X-Factor that would have made it a superb match. Kendrick's Shiranui has absolutely nothing on Marufuji's. Marufuji won in about 15 minutes. ***3/4 Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. Claudio Castagnoli and Matt Sydal One hell of a match. If you've seen the work of these guys, you'd know that the Briscoes and Claudio and Sydal all have completely different styles, so it's interesting, to say the least. The style of this match is hard to describe. Think the style of HBK/Angle I, except Briscoe-style. The first 10 minutes is WWE-style tag matches, and the last 10 minutes smells more of CMLL. The psychology is nothing to jump up and down about, but the pure wrestling is incredible, and all four men are on top of their game, especially Sydal, who I'd always regarded as just as solid worker, who looked very elite. Briscoes win in about 20 minutes. ****1/4 Roderick Strong vs. Delirious A comedy match. It's the only way to describe this encounter. It's absolutely not meant to be taken seriously, which means this won't be remembered in a couple of months, but it was a way of attempting to warm the crowd up before the main event. (It failed, the crowd was actually more hot for this match) Delirious acts as his usually fucktarded self, while Roderick plays the stereotypical 80's heel. Roderick does an excellent job of playing the the 1,250-person crowd and getting angry whenever they chant "Roooooooooderick" or Delirious does a stupid dance or whatever. Problem is he only pulls it off half the time. One quarter he looks constipated, and the other quarter he overdoes so it appears he's emulating Snitsky's look. Roderick eventually got the win in about 20:00, which was too long for me, I felt this should have been around 15:00. **1/2 Takeshima Moreshima and Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness and KENTA Match of the night, and as far as TV or PPV in America goes, match of the year. An absolute psychology masterpiece, fantastic storytelling. Neither of the tag partners actually like each other, so it has the feel of a Fatal-Four Way rather than a tag match. This, when pulled off correctly, a la Angle/Benoit at No Mercy 2002, is awesome, and it was done very well here. The tags were hesitant, and all four men did an excellent job making sure to keep an eye on both corners. Moreshima is a heel, so obviously he and Danielson are not going to get along. KENTA and McGuinness are both faces, but KENTA plays the serious face so well (like the one Kurt Angle wishes he was) that it's easy to believe he respects his opponents but at the same time is willing to beat the crap out of anyone just the same. Danielson eventually makes KENTA tap to the Cattle Mutilation in 25:00. While KENTA is on the ground, Moreshima attacks both McGuinness and Danielson as ROH continues their streak of booking Moreshima perfectly. ****1/4 On a side note, ROH put on 87 minutes of wrestling, on a 120-minute PPV. TNA and WWE barely beat that with 180-minute PPV's. Sad, sad, sad. I'm hoping ROH gets 5 figure numbers for their first PPV. I'd say this slightly passes Final Resolution as PPV of the year. |
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| Lance | Jul 3 2007, 10:41 AM Post #2 |
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Next time you get bored of your lives, gimme a call and I'll come round and KILL YOU.
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Whitmer is far from useless. He's about a thousand times better than Sydal, for instance. I'm eager to see the main event. Morishima often gets used as a hoss but when its time for a longer match you begin to see that mentally he's all there and then some, and Danielson is still the best wrestler on earth on his day. |
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| Tietam_Brown | Jul 3 2007, 10:49 AM Post #3 |
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Midcarder
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I don't suppose there's any way to watch it on TV in the United Kingdom? |
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| nascarsucks | Jul 3 2007, 11:50 AM Post #4 |
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NOT A FAN OF NASCAR
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I prefer Sydal myself. Neither he nor Whitmer have anything on Danielson, McGuinness, or KENTA though.
I'm still a bit skeptical of Morishima. I haven't seen a whole lot of his NOAH work. I've been looking at him for the past few months, and I wasn't a fan of Homicide/Morishima or Joe/Morishima (I gave them ***1/4 and ***`/1, respectively) but looking back at his ROH work and getting a chance to see a bit more of his work between 2004-2006 from NOAH, I understand that he's not really technically sound or athletically gifted, but he really has a mind for wrestling, really knows what he's doing in the ring, understands the structure and storytelling of matches.
I doubt it. But don't complain. You get to watch old ROH events for free on TV over there, so does Canada, ROH is on TV pretty much everywhere besides the US. This was America's first chance to watch ROH. And from reading reviews, everyone loved it. |
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| Lance | Jul 3 2007, 12:26 PM Post #5 |
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Next time you get bored of your lives, gimme a call and I'll come round and KILL YOU.
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Of course they haven't. Whitmer, though, when he has a chance, does everything possible to make you care about the match. Unlike the useless Sydal, he's a realist. His brawling, aggression and sympathy selling are all spot on. To be honest, I had to see him live to appreciate this, but he's very underrated.
What did you expect from a Japanese heavyweight? |
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| Tietam_Brown | Jul 3 2007, 01:02 PM Post #6 |
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You don't get ROH if you don't have Sky. |
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| nascarsucks | Jul 3 2007, 02:36 PM Post #7 |
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NOT A FAN OF NASCAR
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Nope. I've never once given a shit about something Whitmer did in the ring, which ought to be the first priority for any wrestler. Whitmer is OK. A **3/4 wrestler. Sydal often seems to forget what happened earlier in the way, but he's interesting and fun to watch, not to mention that he's fluid, high-flying, and technically sound. I'd put Sydal as a *** wrestler.
I don't know. The only Japanese wrestlers that ever came over were lightweights. Tajiri, Ultimo Dragon, etc.
Don't a lot of people have Sky over in the UK? |
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| Tietam_Brown | Jul 3 2007, 02:54 PM Post #8 |
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Midcarder
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Just as many people have Virgin Media, which doesn't carry the Wrestling Channel. |
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| Lance | Jul 3 2007, 03:28 PM Post #9 |
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Next time you get bored of your lives, gimme a call and I'll come round and KILL YOU.
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It is his first priority. In fact, it's the only thing he ever does, whether he's in the ring or on the mic. It's all for the audience, from his excellent punches to his DDTs to his finishes. If you watched wrestling matches properly instead of looking for the next big move or taunt then you'd see that. Watch anything he was involved in from the RoH/CZW feud, especially his match with Necro: hardcore nonsense aside he delivered an emotionally-charged performance, even using the ultraviolence stips to his advantage. In vs Jimmy Jacobs in Liverpool, he put on one of the best undercard babyface performances the American indies have seen this decade. Really, his brawling is all he needs, but even on top of that you get a few stiff brainbusters and Japanese finishers.
Hahaha. Sorry, I keep forgetting and thinking I'm talking to someone who knows what they're talking about. Sydal is a poor man's AJ Styles. Being fluid, technically sound and highflying means nothing. Nothing. He performs highly choreographed violence with no purpose in the great American independent tradition. He's an average heel with average ability, totally reliant on athleticism to keep the crowd involved.
This explains so much. Oh, and stop the star rating thing. You're just overdoing it now. |
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| nascarsucks | Jul 3 2007, 03:51 PM Post #10 |
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NOT A FAN OF NASCAR
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Goodness gracious, Of. Tad fiesty, aren't we?
Whitmer strikes me as a 60's throwback, and though his moves are solid, it looks to me like all of Whitmer's training is pulled from movie barfight scenes, it's like he has no clue what the opponent is doing. The point is that BJ Whitmer would wrestle the exact same match with Jimmy Jacobs, Moreshima, or an oversized teddy bear, when you can't really do that, you have to adjust to your opponent in order to make the match look fluid, the typical Whitmer match looks a bit like K-1 rather than ROH, though I did enjoy his match with Jacobs and gave it ****. He's very hit-and-miss to me.
He is average, as I've mentioned before, and he is a poor man's AJ Styles. He is an average heel with average ability and he is reliant on athleticism. Whitmer's just not that much better, is all I'm saying.
You misunderstand, of course I've seen Japanese Heavyweights, just not a whole lot of them wrestling an American style. You'll agree, of course, that ROH and NOAH are very different styles?
It's a way to place a tangible value on a wrestler, or a match. It helps at getting rid of fuzziness and gray areas. "Great" to one person might mean ***1/2, whereas another person might think a match must be ****3/4 to be "Great". |
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| euanzooom | Jul 3 2007, 03:58 PM Post #11 |
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Midcarder
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Scarily, Nascar is far from the worst on here. It's often hilarious reading threads in here involving people having entire conversations almost totally in ********* wank language, when they don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about. |
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| coolcool | Jul 3 2007, 04:23 PM Post #12 |
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A Member
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Yeah, I remember somebody wrote a sentence similar to, "the match could be ***, maybe ***1/4. ***3/4 is pushing it, though. I'm hoping for a ****1/2 classic but we're stuck in the *** range." It was on the proboards and euan made some remark about it being like a weather forecast. Gold. |
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| Teq | Jul 3 2007, 04:28 PM Post #13 |
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Upper Midcarder
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I'll give my important opinions of this event either tonight or tomorrow, depending on when MA TORRENTZ finish it! |
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| Lance | Jul 3 2007, 04:29 PM Post #14 |
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Next time you get bored of your lives, gimme a call and I'll come round and KILL YOU.
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Based on what? His selling is very solid, short and long term.
An arena-wide dicking is the same as a three minute squash? What about his mat-based matches with Doug Williams and Chris Daniels? Or his old school bout vs Corino from '03? Or his ultraviolent CZW exploits?
Nonsense. Fluidity is unimportant unless we're discussing structure. When it's part of the moment, flawless execution can help in the right circumstances but it can look silly elsewhere. I'm not putting Whitmer in the same league, but Finlay and Regal didn't need it. Nor, if you look at superworkers, did Hansen or Kawada. Whitmer knows it's not a necessity. The only people that need that are sideshow attractions like Daniels.
Good.
No, you were saying Sydal was better. Check your star ratings.
Obviously. My point was that saying "not really technically sound or athletically gifted, but he really has a mind for wrestling, really knows what he's doing in the ring, understands the structure and storytelling of matches" about a Japanese heavyweight was stating the obvious somewhat.
No, really?
Agreed totally. Born2beskinny is still my favourite.
You should see me dance the polka. |
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| jerseyboybastard | Jul 3 2007, 05:04 PM Post #15 |
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Upper Midcarder
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When did this air!?! I checked my Comcast ppv listings over the weekend to see if it was being listed and didn't see anything. Time to go back and see if it is now. |
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| March Haire | Jul 3 2007, 05:09 PM Post #16 |
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Jamie Lee Curtis
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I'll download it later, then give my opinion. I'll use as few stars as possible, as always. |
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| White_Roach | Jul 3 2007, 05:14 PM Post #17 |
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Upper Midcarder
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Comcast is being provided by InDemand, which doesn't air it until July 20something. |
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| nascarsucks | Jul 3 2007, 05:27 PM Post #18 |
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NOT A FAN OF NASCAR
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Many LAWLZ to be had on that one.
Yes, I know, his offense just isn't interesting. As I previously said, he looks pretty good when he's getting his ass kicked.
I was actually referring to his Fifth Year Festival Match with Morishima. And yeah, that match looked the same as his matches with Daniels, Joe, Castagnoli and others.
We were discussing strucutre. Remember how I said BJ Whitmer fights the same match regardless of his opponent? And why didn't Finlay or Regal need it? Well, Regal did, I still find him somewhat boring. As for Finlay, he wrestles somewhat of the style of Triple H, very psychological, very defined, the anti-Jack Evans, if you will. Everything in a Finlay match is defined and looks like he had a premeditated plan to beat the crap out of his opponent.
Why is a wrestler looking like a kickboxer good?
I was saying Sydal was better, slightly. If I haven't made this clear as well, I could see the argument that Whitmer is better, slightly.
There were plenty of Japanese heavyweights that are technically sound, and there are many that have no fucking clue how to structure a match. Maybe the structure is more common in a Japanese match, but to someone that does not have an extensive knowledge of puro, like myself, it isn't quite so blatant. |
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| Lance | Jul 3 2007, 06:27 PM Post #19 |
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Next time you get bored of your lives, gimme a call and I'll come round and KILL YOU.
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The offence doesn't have to look interesting. Kanyon had some interesting moves and rarely had a good match. Lawler built classics around punches.
Not the Daniels matches that I've seen. None were particularly good but for mat/handspring-out-of-an-armlock-type based matches they were alright. Totally, totally different from his bouts with Jacobs, Necro etc, which needed a different type of wrestling, as did his matches with Castagnoli, Joe and so on. You can't criticise a wrestler because a few of his matches were similar in terms of offence.
No, you said it's about making a match look fluid, before immediately referencing K-1 or some shite. That immedietely implies execution.
Finlay and Regal didn't need it because they understood how to work. In their best matches they fight between holds and even in them. A simple abdominal stretch looks closer to a shoot hold in Regal's hands, and then he does something so obvious few other people think of it, like palm strike the opponent in the face. His headlocks, in which he would wrench the neck upwards, mean more than a hundred X-Division moonsaults. Hell, his lateral presses, in which he would grind his elbow into an opponent's face, were fantastic and didn't need to look pretty. Do you understand that that type of borderline stiff nastiness is immensely preferable to high impact leg lariats? Their match at Uncensored 96, or the Pillman tribute match, or Benoit/Finlay at Judgment Day last year, illustrate why realism should always come before aesthetics. No wasted motion, no pointless flashy spots, nothing out of place. This is primarily what Whitmer tries to do. Hence, Whitmer >>>>> Sydal.
Aside from the methodical pace, Triple H and Finlay have practically nothing in common. Finlay is stiff, nasty and, like Regal, has his offence based in holds. H is about a slow build-up, yes, but his moves have none of the grit or bite that Finlay's do. He's a more gradual sports entertainment wrestler, always looking to finish someone off with a pedigree or sledgehammer behind the referee's back, whereas you could believe that Finlay could finish you off with any number of holds or even strikes before resorting to a shillelagh. One is not necessarily better than the other all of the time but they do not wrestle "that" kind of match.
Because it requires less suspension of disbelief than a Double Helix or a Cyclorama.
Such as? Nagata or possibly Hash were technically sound but a "Japanese heavyweight" from NOAH automatically implies the '90s All Japan style. |
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| euanzooom | Jul 4 2007, 07:50 PM Post #20 |
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Midcarder
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UWF.80s. Nuff said. |
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