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ROH Respect Is Earned Review; Warning: BJ Whitmer discussion inside
Topic Started: Jul 3 2007, 01:35 AM (803 Views)
nascarsucks
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Ay, so being the biggest ROH dick-rider on this board, I decided I've give my thoughts on Respect Is Earned.

Takeshima Moreshima vs. BJ Whitmer
A pretty standard squash. Whitmer does a good job of putting Moreshima over as a monster while making himself look like a useless wanker, which, compared to the rest of the ROH roster, he is. Moreshima won in about 3 minutes. 1/2*



Naomichi Marufuji vs. Rocky Romero
A match that looked straight out of late 90's AJPW. Marufuji begins chopping Romero so stiffly you wonder how many welts Romero is going to have on his chest before the match ends. Subtletly, Romero begins attacking Marufuji just as stiffly, if not more so. An excellent blend of technical wrestling and storytelling, but missing that little X-Factor that would have made it a superb match. Kendrick's Shiranui has absolutely nothing on Marufuji's. Marufuji won in about 15 minutes. ***3/4



Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. Claudio Castagnoli and Matt Sydal
One hell of a match. If you've seen the work of these guys, you'd know that the Briscoes and Claudio and Sydal all have completely different styles, so it's interesting, to say the least. The style of this match is hard to describe. Think the style of HBK/Angle I, except Briscoe-style. The first 10 minutes is WWE-style tag matches, and the last 10 minutes smells more of CMLL. The psychology is nothing to jump up and down about, but the pure wrestling is incredible, and all four men are on top of their game, especially Sydal, who I'd always regarded as just as solid worker, who looked very elite. Briscoes win in about 20 minutes. ****1/4



Roderick Strong vs. Delirious
A comedy match. It's the only way to describe this encounter. It's absolutely not meant to be taken seriously, which means this won't be remembered in a couple of months, but it was a way of attempting to warm the crowd up before the main event. (It failed, the crowd was actually more hot for this match) Delirious acts as his usually fucktarded self, while Roderick plays the stereotypical 80's heel. Roderick does an excellent job of playing the the 1,250-person crowd and getting angry whenever they chant "Roooooooooderick" or Delirious does a stupid dance or whatever. Problem is he only pulls it off half the time. One quarter he looks constipated, and the other quarter he overdoes so it appears he's emulating Snitsky's look. Roderick eventually got the win in about 20:00, which was too long for me, I felt this should have been around 15:00. **1/2



Takeshima Moreshima and Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness and KENTA
Match of the night, and as far as TV or PPV in America goes, match of the year. An absolute psychology masterpiece, fantastic storytelling. Neither of the tag partners actually like each other, so it has the feel of a Fatal-Four Way rather than a tag match. This, when pulled off correctly, a la Angle/Benoit at No Mercy 2002, is awesome, and it was done very well here. The tags were hesitant, and all four men did an excellent job making sure to keep an eye on both corners. Moreshima is a heel, so obviously he and Danielson are not going to get along. KENTA and McGuinness are both faces, but KENTA plays the serious face so well (like the one Kurt Angle wishes he was) that it's easy to believe he respects his opponents but at the same time is willing to beat the crap out of anyone just the same. Danielson eventually makes KENTA tap to the Cattle Mutilation in 25:00. While KENTA is on the ground, Moreshima attacks both McGuinness and Danielson as ROH continues their streak of booking Moreshima perfectly. ****1/4

On a side note, ROH put on 87 minutes of wrestling, on a 120-minute PPV. TNA and WWE barely beat that with 180-minute PPV's. Sad, sad, sad. I'm hoping ROH gets 5 figure numbers for their first PPV. I'd say this slightly passes Final Resolution as PPV of the year.
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Lance
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Whitmer is far from useless. He's about a thousand times better than Sydal, for instance.

I'm eager to see the main event. Morishima often gets used as a hoss but when its time for a longer match you begin to see that mentally he's all there and then some, and Danielson is still the best wrestler on earth on his day.
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Tietam_Brown
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I don't suppose there's any way to watch it on TV in the United Kingdom?
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nascarsucks
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Whitmer is far from useless. He's about a thousand times better than Sydal, for instance.


I prefer Sydal myself. Neither he nor Whitmer have anything on Danielson, McGuinness, or KENTA though.

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I'm eager to see the main event. Morishima often gets used as a hoss but when its time for a longer match you begin to see that mentally he's all there and then some, and Danielson is still the best wrestler on earth on his day.


I'm still a bit skeptical of Morishima. I haven't seen a whole lot of his NOAH work. I've been looking at him for the past few months, and I wasn't a fan of Homicide/Morishima or Joe/Morishima (I gave them ***1/4 and ***`/1, respectively) but looking back at his ROH work and getting a chance to see a bit more of his work between 2004-2006 from NOAH, I understand that he's not really technically sound or athletically gifted, but he really has a mind for wrestling, really knows what he's doing in the ring, understands the structure and storytelling of matches.


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I don't suppose there's any way to watch it on TV in the United Kingdom?


I doubt it. But don't complain. You get to watch old ROH events for free on TV over there, so does Canada, ROH is on TV pretty much everywhere besides the US. This was America's first chance to watch ROH. And from reading reviews, everyone loved it.
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Lance
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I prefer Sydal myself. Neither he nor Whitmer have anything on Danielson, McGuinness, or KENTA though.


Of course they haven't. Whitmer, though, when he has a chance, does everything possible to make you care about the match. Unlike the useless Sydal, he's a realist. His brawling, aggression and sympathy selling are all spot on. To be honest, I had to see him live to appreciate this, but he's very underrated.

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I understand that he's not really technically sound or athletically gifted, but he really has a mind for wrestling, really knows what he's doing in the ring, understands the structure and storytelling of matches.


What did you expect from a Japanese heavyweight?
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Tietam_Brown
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nascarsucks
Jul 3 2007, 11:50 AM
I doubt it. But don't complain. You get to watch old ROH events for free on TV over there, so does Canada, ROH is on TV pretty much everywhere besides the US. This was America's first chance to watch ROH. And from reading reviews, everyone loved it.

You don't get ROH if you don't have Sky.
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nascarsucks
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Of course they haven't. Whitmer, though, when he has a chance, does everything possible to make you care about the match. Unlike the useless Sydal, he's a realist. His brawling, aggression and sympathy selling are all spot on. To be honest, I had to see him live to appreciate this, but he's very underrated.


Nope. I've never once given a shit about something Whitmer did in the ring, which ought to be the first priority for any wrestler. Whitmer is OK. A **3/4 wrestler. Sydal often seems to forget what happened earlier in the way, but he's interesting and fun to watch, not to mention that he's fluid, high-flying, and technically sound. I'd put Sydal as a *** wrestler.

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What did you expect from a Japanese heavyweight?


I don't know. The only Japanese wrestlers that ever came over were lightweights. Tajiri, Ultimo Dragon, etc.

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You don't get ROH if you don't have Sky.


Don't a lot of people have Sky over in the UK?

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Tietam_Brown
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nascarsucks
Jul 3 2007, 02:36 PM
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You don't get ROH if you don't have Sky.


Don't a lot of people have Sky over in the UK?

Just as many people have Virgin Media, which doesn't carry the Wrestling Channel.
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Lance
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Nope. I've never once given a shit about something Whitmer did in the ring, which ought to be the first priority for any wrestler.


It is his first priority. In fact, it's the only thing he ever does, whether he's in the ring or on the mic. It's all for the audience, from his excellent punches to his DDTs to his finishes. If you watched wrestling matches properly instead of looking for the next big move or taunt then you'd see that. Watch anything he was involved in from the RoH/CZW feud, especially his match with Necro: hardcore nonsense aside he delivered an emotionally-charged performance, even using the ultraviolence stips to his advantage. In vs Jimmy Jacobs in Liverpool, he put on one of the best undercard babyface performances the American indies have seen this decade. Really, his brawling is all he needs, but even on top of that you get a few stiff brainbusters and Japanese finishers.

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Whitmer is OK. A **3/4 wrestler. Sydal often seems to forget what happened earlier in the way, but he's interesting and fun to watch, not to mention that he's fluid, high-flying, and technically sound. I'd put Sydal as a *** wrestler.


Hahaha. Sorry, I keep forgetting and thinking I'm talking to someone who knows what they're talking about. Sydal is a poor man's AJ Styles. Being fluid, technically sound and highflying means nothing. Nothing. He performs highly choreographed violence with no purpose in the great American independent tradition. He's an average heel with average ability, totally reliant on athleticism to keep the crowd involved.

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I don't know. The only Japanese wrestlers that ever came over were lightweights. Tajiri, Ultimo Dragon, etc.


This explains so much.

Oh, and stop the star rating thing. You're just overdoing it now.
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nascarsucks
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Goodness gracious, Of. Tad fiesty, aren't we?

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It is his first priority. In fact, it's the only thing he ever does, whether he's in the ring or on the mic. It's all for the audience, from his excellent punches to his DDTs to his finishes. If you watched wrestling matches properly instead of looking for the next big move or taunt then you'd see that. Watch anything he was involved in from the RoH/CZW feud, especially his match with Necro: hardcore nonsense aside he delivered an emotionally-charged performance, even using the ultraviolence stips to his advantage. In vs Jimmy Jacobs in Liverpool, he put on one of the best undercard babyface performances the American indies have seen this decade. Really, his brawling is all he needs, but even on top of that you get a few stiff brainbusters and Japanese finishers.


Whitmer strikes me as a 60's throwback, and though his moves are solid, it looks to me like all of Whitmer's training is pulled from movie barfight scenes, it's like he has no clue what the opponent is doing. The point is that BJ Whitmer would wrestle the exact same match with Jimmy Jacobs, Moreshima, or an oversized teddy bear, when you can't really do that, you have to adjust to your opponent in order to make the match look fluid, the typical Whitmer match looks a bit like K-1 rather than ROH, though I did enjoy his match with Jacobs and gave it ****. He's very hit-and-miss to me.

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Hahaha. Sorry, I keep forgetting and thinking I'm talking to someone who knows what they're talking about. Sydal is a poor man's AJ Styles. Being fluid, technically sound and highflying means nothing. Nothing. He performs highly choreographed violence with no purpose in the great American independent tradition. He's an average heel with average ability, totally reliant on athleticism to keep the crowd involved.


He is average, as I've mentioned before, and he is a poor man's AJ Styles. He is an average heel with average ability and he is reliant on athleticism. Whitmer's just not that much better, is all I'm saying.

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This explains so much.


You misunderstand, of course I've seen Japanese Heavyweights, just not a whole lot of them wrestling an American style. You'll agree, of course, that ROH and NOAH are very different styles?

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Oh, and stop the star rating thing. You're just overdoing it now.


It's a way to place a tangible value on a wrestler, or a match. It helps at getting rid of fuzziness and gray areas. "Great" to one person might mean ***1/2, whereas another person might think a match must be ****3/4 to be "Great".
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euanzooom
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Oh, and stop the star rating thing. You're just overdoing it now.


Scarily, Nascar is far from the worst on here. It's often hilarious reading threads in here involving people having entire conversations almost totally in ********* wank language, when they don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about.
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coolcool
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Yeah, I remember somebody wrote a sentence similar to, "the match could be ***, maybe ***1/4. ***3/4 is pushing it, though. I'm hoping for a ****1/2 classic but we're stuck in the *** range."

It was on the proboards and euan made some remark about it being like a weather forecast. Gold.
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Teq
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I'll give my important opinions of this event either tonight or tomorrow, depending on when MA TORRENTZ finish it!
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Lance
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Whitmer strikes me as a 60's throwback, and though his moves are solid, it looks to me like all of Whitmer's training is pulled from movie barfight scenes, it's like he has no clue what the opponent is doing.


Based on what? His selling is very solid, short and long term.

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The point is that BJ Whitmer would wrestle the exact same match with Jimmy Jacobs, Moreshima, or an oversized teddy bear


An arena-wide dicking is the same as a three minute squash? What about his mat-based matches with Doug Williams and Chris Daniels? Or his old school bout vs Corino from '03? Or his ultraviolent CZW exploits?

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when you can't really do that, you have to adjust to your opponent in order to make the match look fluid


Nonsense. Fluidity is unimportant unless we're discussing structure. When it's part of the moment, flawless execution can help in the right circumstances but it can look silly elsewhere. I'm not putting Whitmer in the same league, but Finlay and Regal didn't need it. Nor, if you look at superworkers, did Hansen or Kawada. Whitmer knows it's not a necessity. The only people that need that are sideshow attractions like Daniels.

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the typical Whitmer match looks a bit like K-1 rather than ROH


Good.

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He is average, as I've mentioned before, and he is a poor man's AJ Styles. He is an average heel with average ability and he is reliant on athleticism. Whitmer's just not that much better, is all I'm saying.


No, you were saying Sydal was better. Check your star ratings.

Quote:
 
You misunderstand, of course I've seen Japanese Heavyweights, just not a whole lot of them wrestling an American style. You'll agree, of course, that ROH and NOAH are very different styles?


Obviously. My point was that saying "not really technically sound or athletically gifted, but he really has a mind for wrestling, really knows what he's doing in the ring, understands the structure and storytelling of matches" about a Japanese heavyweight was stating the obvious somewhat.

Quote:
 
It's a way to place a tangible value on a wrestler, or a match. It helps at getting rid of fuzziness and gray areas. "Great" to one person might mean ***1/2, whereas another person might think a match must be ****3/4 to be "Great".


No, really?

Quote:
 
Scarily, Nascar is far from the worst on here. It's often hilarious reading threads in here involving people having entire conversations almost totally in ********* wank language, when they don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about.


Agreed totally. Born2beskinny is still my favourite.

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Goodness gracious, Of. Tad fiesty, aren't we?


You should see me dance the polka.
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jerseyboybastard
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When did this air!?! I checked my Comcast ppv listings over the weekend to see if it was being listed and didn't see anything. Time to go back and see if it is now.
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March Haire
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I'll download it later, then give my opinion. I'll use as few stars as possible, as always.
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White_Roach
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Jul 3 2007, 01:04 PM
When did this air!?! I checked my Comcast ppv listings over the weekend to see if it was being listed and didn't see anything. Time to go back and see if it is now.

Comcast is being provided by InDemand, which doesn't air it until July 20something.
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nascarsucks
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Yeah, I remember somebody wrote a sentence similar to, "the match could be ***, maybe ***1/4. ***3/4 is pushing it, though. I'm hoping for a ****1/2 classic but we're stuck in the *** range."

It was on the proboards and euan made some remark about it being like a weather forecast. Gold.


Many LAWLZ to be had on that one.

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Based on what? His selling is very solid, short and long term.


Yes, I know, his offense just isn't interesting. As I previously said, he looks pretty good when he's getting his ass kicked.

Quote:
 
An arena-wide dicking is the same as a three minute squash? What about his mat-based matches with Doug Williams and Chris Daniels? Or his old school bout vs Corino from '03? Or his ultraviolent CZW exploits?


I was actually referring to his Fifth Year Festival Match with Morishima. And yeah, that match looked the same as his matches with Daniels, Joe, Castagnoli and others.

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Nonsense. Fluidity is unimportant unless we're discussing structure. When it's part of the moment, flawless execution can help in the right circumstances but it can look silly elsewhere. I'm not putting Whitmer in the same league, but Finlay and Regal didn't need it. Nor, if you look at superworkers, did Hansen or Kawada. Whitmer knows it's not a necessity. The only people that need that are sideshow attractions like Daniels.


We were discussing strucutre. Remember how I said BJ Whitmer fights the same match regardless of his opponent? And why didn't Finlay or Regal need it? Well, Regal did, I still find him somewhat boring. As for Finlay, he wrestles somewhat of the style of Triple H, very psychological, very defined, the anti-Jack Evans, if you will. Everything in a Finlay match is defined and looks like he had a premeditated plan to beat the crap out of his opponent.

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Good.


Why is a wrestler looking like a kickboxer good?

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No, you were saying Sydal was better. Check your star ratings.


I was saying Sydal was better, slightly. If I haven't made this clear as well, I could see the argument that Whitmer is better, slightly.

Quote:
 
Obviously. My point was that saying "not really technically sound or athletically gifted, but he really has a mind for wrestling, really knows what he's doing in the ring, understands the structure and storytelling of matches" about a Japanese heavyweight was stating the obvious somewhat.


There were plenty of Japanese heavyweights that are technically sound, and there are many that have no fucking clue how to structure a match. Maybe the structure is more common in a Japanese match, but to someone that does not have an extensive knowledge of puro, like myself, it isn't quite so blatant.

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Lance
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Yes, I know, his offense just isn't interesting. As I previously said, he looks pretty good when he's getting his ass kicked.


The offence doesn't have to look interesting. Kanyon had some interesting moves and rarely had a good match. Lawler built classics around punches.

Quote:
 
I was actually referring to his Fifth Year Festival Match with Morishima. And yeah, that match looked the same as his matches with Daniels, Joe, Castagnoli and others.


Not the Daniels matches that I've seen. None were particularly good but for mat/handspring-out-of-an-armlock-type based matches they were alright. Totally, totally different from his bouts with Jacobs, Necro etc, which needed a different type of wrestling, as did his matches with Castagnoli, Joe and so on. You can't criticise a wrestler because a few of his matches were similar in terms of offence.

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We were discussing strucutre. Remember how I said BJ Whitmer fights the same match regardless of his opponent?


No, you said it's about making a match look fluid, before immediately referencing K-1 or some shite. That immedietely implies execution.

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And why didn't Finlay or Regal need it? Well, Regal did, I still find him somewhat boring.


Finlay and Regal didn't need it because they understood how to work. In their best matches they fight between holds and even in them. A simple abdominal stretch looks closer to a shoot hold in Regal's hands, and then he does something so obvious few other people think of it, like palm strike the opponent in the face. His headlocks, in which he would wrench the neck upwards, mean more than a hundred X-Division moonsaults. Hell, his lateral presses, in which he would grind his elbow into an opponent's face, were fantastic and didn't need to look pretty. Do you understand that that type of borderline stiff nastiness is immensely preferable to high impact leg lariats? Their match at Uncensored 96, or the Pillman tribute match, or Benoit/Finlay at Judgment Day last year, illustrate why realism should always come before aesthetics. No wasted motion, no pointless flashy spots, nothing out of place. This is primarily what Whitmer tries to do. Hence, Whitmer >>>>> Sydal.

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As for Finlay, he wrestles somewhat of the style of Triple H, very psychological, very defined, the anti-Jack Evans, if you will. Everything in a Finlay match is defined and looks like he had a premeditated plan to beat the crap out of his opponent.


Aside from the methodical pace, Triple H and Finlay have practically nothing in common. Finlay is stiff, nasty and, like Regal, has his offence based in holds. H is about a slow build-up, yes, but his moves have none of the grit or bite that Finlay's do. He's a more gradual sports entertainment wrestler, always looking to finish someone off with a pedigree or sledgehammer behind the referee's back, whereas you could believe that Finlay could finish you off with any number of holds or even strikes before resorting to a shillelagh. One is not necessarily better than the other all of the time but they do not wrestle "that" kind of match.

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Why is a wrestler looking like a kickboxer good?


Because it requires less suspension of disbelief than a Double Helix or a Cyclorama.

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There were plenty of Japanese heavyweights that are technically sound, and there are many that have no fucking clue how to structure a match.


Such as? Nagata or possibly Hash were technically sound but a "Japanese heavyweight" from NOAH automatically implies the '90s All Japan style.
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euanzooom
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QUOTE 
Why is a wrestler looking like a kickboxer good?


UWF.80s. Nuff said.
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